Why fly fast approaches?

I did my BFR last month in a PA28-181. It is an airplane new to the
flying club I belong to and although I have more than 60 hours in type,
the owner requires anyone who desires to rent it, have an instructor
checkout.

Prior to the flight I calculated a weight and balance and appropriate
speeds for the actual takeoff and landing weights.

I started to pull for takeoff at the calculated speed and the
instructor said, "No, no, wait until 65 kts."
Okay.

For the first landing, I stated the calculated 1.5Vso and 1.3Vso speeds.
The instructor again said, "No, no, that's too slow. Use 75 kts."

When we were on the ground, I asked him why he wanted the faster speeds.
His answer was that this was not a new airplane, so the book values
needed to be increased to allow for age related things that could
affect the noted V-speeds.

Unless the instructor was joking with you, it might be time for a new
instructor. Aircraft age has nothing to do with V speeds.

I fly final in my PA28-180 at 80mph, and slow to 75 crossing the
threshold. This is right at 1.3Vso, (57*1.3=74) and it works well.


Approach speeds really depend on the airplane. If it can dump speed and energy
fast once you're over the fence -- 172s can do that -- you can still enter the
flare slow enough. On the other hand, if you are carrying 80 kts in an
airplane like a Mooney, you'll need a lot of runway to fly over before you want
to get down to where ground effect makes it even more efficient.

Maybe the question should be at what speed do you want to enter ground effect.

I think this instructor needs some recurrent training. He's got some issues.
Why is
he afraid to fly slow? I've always used 1.3Vso on final and 1.2Vso over the
fence.
I adjust that depending on my weight. If you don't use the right airspeed
you're not
going to get a good landing. As for takeoff, when it wants to fly it will. I
just start
applying light back pressure at around 55mph (151 Warrior, 2 notches flaps)
and when it's ready
it will leave the ground.


"EDR" wrote in message
...
I did my BFR last month in a PA28-181. It is an airplane new to the
flying club I belong to and although I have more than 60 hours in type,
the owner requires anyone who desires to rent it, have an instructor
checkout.

Prior to the flight I calculated a weight and balance and appropriate
speeds for the actual takeoff and landing weights.

I started to pull for takeoff at the calculated speed and the
instructor said, "No, no, wait until 65 kts."
Okay.

For the first landing, I stated the calculated 1.5Vso and 1.3Vso speeds.
The instructor again said, "No, no, that's too slow. Use 75 kts."

When we were on the ground, I asked him why he wanted the faster speeds.
His answer was that this was not a new airplane, so the book values
needed to be increased to allow for age related things that could
affect the noted V-speeds.

I can understand the reasoning for a student pilot, the likes of which
this instructor does a lot of training with, but I am 1200+ and over 20
years of flying. I am thinking in terms of performance as would apply
to the Commercial standards. Hence, the reason for calculating the
necessary speeds prior to flight.

I will add that flying at the instructor's recommended speeds leads to
float in the roundout and required more runway. Flying at the
calculated speeds would have resulted in a full stall landing at the
threshhold and clearing at the first turnoff.

What is the perspective of the instructors in this group?
The instructor I fly with knows me. Why would he not hold me to
Commercial standards?

I think you pretty well identified the situation, Richard.
The instructor does a great deal of initial/primary student training.
This is the first Archer we have had in our flying club in seven years,
and he didn't begin flying with out club until after that. I don't know
what his experience was prior to that, so it may be that he is not that
familiar with the Archer. (Howerver, we do have a Cherokee Six and a
Turbo Arrow IV. I fly all these Piper's and I think there are some
cross platform similariities.)

1.3 Vso makes a lot of people nervous especially inexperienced pilot

-
pilo

http://www.pilotboard.com I love this place
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Edr,

His answer was that this was not a new airplane, so the book values
needed to be increased to allow for age related things that could
affect the noted V-speeds.

Things like? Ah, thought so.


I can understand the reasoning for a student pilot,


I can't! Not at all! Student pilots absolutely need to learn to fly by
the book, fly slow and make use of the capabilities of the airplane.

A simple explanation: This is not a good instructor.


--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

EDR wrote in message . ..
When we were on the ground, I asked him why he wanted the faster speeds.
His answer was that this was not a new airplane, so the book values
needed to be increased to allow for age related things that could
affect the noted V-speeds.

I'll be interested in what others say, but my take on this is:

As far as I know, all the V-speeds you're talking about are a direct
function of stall speed.

It is possible for age-related items to affect stall speed.

But if that's the case, I think the correct course of action is to
go stall the plane at gross weight and lower weights, and see how well
the actual stall speed corresponds to the "book" stall speed at gross
weight and the stall speed calculated at lower weights.

I also think if the plane is known to stall at higher than "book"
speeds, it's something the instructor should discuss with pilots
he's checking out, on the ground.

I can understand the reasoning for a student pilot

I can't, actually. Adding "5 kts for gust factor (ok), 5 kts
for Grandma, 5 kts because I'm not so sure where this plane really
stalls" leads to a lot of accidents IMO -- overrun accidents when
the pilot lands on a "short" 2000 ft runway instead of the 4000+
beheamoths where extra speed doesn't matter, and directional control
accidents because IMHO the trickiest phase of landing is transitioning
from flight to taxi, and the longer one "floats", the longer one
spends in this phase with extra time for a strong gust of wind
to cause trouble. The temptation to "force it on" also increases
as the plane floats and floats and the pilot starts seeing the end
of the runway approaching.

Airspeed control is one of the most critical aspects of flight --
why not demand it of student pilots from the start, and train
pilots who are capable of operating safely at high DA and short
fields?

JMO,
Sydney

zatatime wrote in message . ..
Puppycock! (And many other expletives as well). Arguments can be made
that dirt and grime accumulate and make an airplane heavier.

Then the owner should clean it . Dirt and grime inside the
cockpit and fuselage hold moisture and promote corrosion.

I took about 30 lbs. of extraneous crap and
wiring out of my plane when I bought it. IMO it's a trade off

It's a very valid point that airplanes "age" as they get older,
and that the actual weight of the plane may be heavier (or lighter)
than calculated.

But if one suspects that the empty weight on the W&B is inaccurate,
it seems to me that the correct "fix" is not to tell all the pilots
flying it to T/O and land at faster speeds -- it's to WEIGH THE PLANE
and calculate a new, accurate empty weight.

There's also the point that if one stalls the plane and the stall
speed differs substantially from 'book' (or at less than gross weight,
calculated value), one can then adjust -- pretty close to your point
"fly the wing" except that I suggest exploring the envelope at altitude
first, in a new-to-the-pilot plane....

Cheers,
Sydney

EDR wrote:

I am thinking in terms of performance as would apply
to the Commercial standards.

This is completely reasonable. I just did my annual club checkride. This
requires flight to PPL standards. But since I'm (slowly) working on my
CPL, that's what I aimed for and what the CFI and I discussed.

If nothing else, this made the ride a lot more fun.

I think your instructor has some issues with slow flight. In fact...how
does he handle the situation when you're at MCA? When you stall?

- Andrew

Well then this instructor will be really un-comfortable in my airplane.
Final is done at 70-65 MPH (61-56 Knots).
Final landing is around 55 MPH (48 knots). ;-)

Instructor would be very un-comfortable.
On final no more than 60 knts
Over the numbers at 40 or below.
Increase RPM to 155 just prior to touchdown.
I have a 172 Skyhawk withe the Horton stohl and a 180 HP engine.
Hank

Michelle P wrote:

Well then this instructor will be really un-comfortable in my airplane.
Final is done at 70-65 MPH (61-56 Knots).
Final landing is around 55 MPH (48 knots). ;-)

Nya - Nya! My Maule's slower than your Maule. My Maule's slower than yours! :-)

George Patterson
None of us is as dumb as all of us.