The ravages of time?

On Jun 17, 7:28*pm, Nyal Williams wrote:
Don't concern yourself with flaps. *You have lots to learn about weather,
strategy, finesse, subtlety. *

Thanks Nyal, I appreciate the info.

Having said that:

I know folks mean well, but really if I was in need of learning that
stuff, I wouldn't be having such a hard time making a decision!

The fact is that I've owned a Russia AC-4 for a year. With a 30:1
glider you _do_ learn to scratch and make low saves, trust me! The
40:1 performance may not be there, but you learn the same lessons as
you would in a standard-class ship.

And in the last year, I've become one of our main local weather gurus
(not saying a whole lot, given how unpredictable weather is in Seattle
- but I get it right more often than I get it wrong). I've taken
college-level meteorology courses, and given weather forecasting
presentations to local pilots.

On top of that, I flew R/C gliders for a few years before I got into
the "real thing", so I learned a lot of this stuff before I even
climbed into the cockpit. Furthermore, I got my SEL private pilot's
license before I got into gliding, so I was already competent when it
came to basic air-work. I almost went into aerospace engineering in
college, before dropping out to do computer-stuff; so I have a pretty
good understanding of aerodynamics and the physical processes acting
on the aircraft throughout the different phases of flight and
different weather phenomena.

On top of that I'm a 30 year old bachelor, and although I work long
hours, my main focus outside of my day-job *is* flying. So BELIEVE me
when I say that I *obsess* about this sport!!!! I do a ton of
research, education, and practice! As a small sample: I've read just
about every book published by both Wander and Knauff, multiple times.
I've studied every "Johnson report" ever published. I've read
Reichmann, Brigliadori, and others. I've gone through the King
Schools DVD training courses (for powered aircraft). I've got several
of the Sporty's training DVDs (including "Transition to Gliders"). I
own almost all of the glider movies published on DVD, and have watched
them all multiple times (both for enjoyment, and for strategy where
possible). I easily have 200+ hours in the Condor soaring simulator,
trying different X-C tactics and exploring the effects of wind and
weather over different terrain... Yes indeed, "obsess" is the right
word (someday soon I'll break away long enough to get a girlfriend
again... soon, I hope... ).

Its not that I'm trying to sound like a know-it-all. I *know* there
are still things for me to learn, and my skills will get better with a
lot of refining, and that I'm nowhere near as good as the guys (and
gals) that have been doing this for 10 or 20 (or more) years. They
regularly spank me, sure! At the airfield I am respectful, ask lots
of questions, and try to always learn something new.

But I'm a very fast learner - it was this way with auto-racing, R/C
flying, and most of my hobbies growing up. I move through the basics
rapidly and then plateau at a medium level of skill. My first season
of auto-racing I placed 3rd in the season championship. I took my PPL
SEL checkride with only 48 hours logged, and the examiner thought I
would have passed the test at commercial-level standards. However,
with most of my hobbies I tend to get frustrated after reaching that
first big plateau - being unable to catch the wise & experienced
folks, and stuck solidly in the middle of the pack after early
successes. Soaring is the first sport / hobby that has held my
interest and that I desire to be involved in for the long-term, even
if it means putting in years of practice to improve in small
incremental ways!

The bottom line is that I've moved beyond the basics. Not to sound
like an egotistical jerk, but I think I'm flying at least as well as
any pilot in my local area that's begun gliding in the last 5 years.
And *that* is why I worry about whether a plane without flaps would be
boring after a couple of years. Will I feel like the flaps are the
one thing keeping me from achieving higher inter-thermal speeds and
really going on long X-C flights? Its the question that keeps me
awake at night (after my eyes are tired from reading Johnson and
Idaflieg data).

...However, you can all rest easy knowing that I found a ship and am
about to make an offer on it (as soon as the A&P tells me its good to
go).

Hopefully it will bring an end to these titanic essays of mine,
right?? :-P

Oh, and its a Standard-Class ship, for the curious (masochistic?) few
who are still reading... ;-)

Take care,

--Noel

On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 23:19:25 -0700 (PDT), "noel.wade"
wrote:


The bottom line is that I've moved beyond the basics. Not to sound
like an egotistical jerk, but I think I'm flying at least as well as
any pilot in my local area that's begun gliding in the last 5 years.
And *that* is why I worry about whether a plane without flaps would be
boring after a couple of years. Will I feel like the flaps are the
one thing keeping me from achieving higher inter-thermal speeds and
really going on long X-C flights? Its the question that keeps me
awake at night (after my eyes are tired from reading Johnson and
Idaflieg data).

Hi Noel,

having read about all your phantastic skills, I have a very bad
message for you.

Unfortunately you are going to master all the fine points of flying a
flapped ship within four weeks. Since you already mastered all the XC
skills, too, there's nothing left to learn for you.

I'd strongly suggest to buy an EB-28, eta or Dick Butler's upcoming
Concordia... with gliders like that you have at least a few more
challenges, keeping gliding interesting for perhaps half a year
longer.


Bye
Andreas

On Jun 18, 7:48*am, Andreas Maurer wrote:

Unfortunately you are going to master all the fine points of flying a
flapped ship within four weeks. Since you already mastered all the XC
skills, too, there's nothing left to learn for you.

I'd strongly suggest to buy an EB-28, eta or Dick Butler's upcoming
Concordia... with gliders like that you have at least a few more
challenges, keeping gliding interesting for perhaps half a year
longer.

Bye
Andreas

Yeah - sucks to be me, eh?

Honestly, I wouldn't buy one of those big-span gliders even if I had
the money - they make it too easy! Don't like the lift? Simply level
out and fly to the next state (or country, if you're in
Europe)... ;-)

--Noel
(Who would have loved to put his money where his mouth is by competing
in the Region 8 contest next week; but couldn't get the time off work
- argh!)

noel.wade wrote:
Will I feel like the flaps are the
one thing keeping me from achieving higher inter-thermal speeds and
really going on long X-C flights? Its the question that keeps me
awake at night (after my eyes are tired from reading Johnson and
Idaflieg data).

Flaps really aren't the issue as I understand it. I've heard reports of
research that suggests that on a day when thermal averages (that's
average for the whole climb, not peak readings on the vario) are below 4
kts, standard class gliders achieve as good inter-thermal speeds as
flapped gliders. Above 4kt averages, flaps show an advantage. From what
I recall of this thread, you're flying in an area which has not
dissimilar conditions to the UK where I fly - few if any days will give
consistent 4kt+ averages.

The two things which affect your XC ability in such conditions a

1. L/D. In an AC4, you can't sample too many potential thermals before
the ground arrives. 40/1 plus gives you that ability. It should also
mean you need to stop less frequently to thermal, and thus achieve
higher speeds.

2. Polar curve. This, in my view is the biggest factor once your L/D is
high enough to make XC comparatively feasible (i.e. if the day is
soarable, you would expect to keep airborne and make progress unless you
screw up - to my mind this is 36+). I fly an Open Cirrus, which
definitely achieves 40+ L/D. However, the polar drops off steeply
compared to more modern designs, which means that as soon as I fly
faster than 50/55kt I burn off height rapidly. On a sub-4kt day, the
height losses in cruising at even 60kt are unlikely to be balanced by my
climbs, so I cruise at 50-55kt. This caps my XC speed, and there's
nothing I can do to increase it. Gliders with a flatter polar achieve
higher XC speeds than me because they can cruise at 65-70kt without
excessive height loss. On the other hand, I can beat them in really weak
weather (say, 3,000 ft cloudbase, 1-2 kt thermals). This doesn't mean I
can't manage XC flights, just that I can't manage them quickly. My next
aim is a 500k flight, and I'm reconciled to it taking me 8hrs in the UK
unless I hit a magic day.

I'd therefore suggest you look closely at the polar of any glider you're
thinking of buying, concentrating on the 60-80kt band. A good test might
be to work out the Macready 2 or 3 speed to fly - the higher that
number, the flatter the polar.

And of course, everything else in this thread is good advice to be taken
into account as well.

The bottom line is that I've moved beyond the basics. Not to sound
like an egotistical jerk, but I think I'm flying at least as well as
any pilot in my local area that's begun gliding in the last 5 years.
And *that* is why I worry about whether a plane without flaps would be
boring after a couple of years. Will I feel like the flaps are the
one thing keeping me from achieving higher inter-thermal speeds and
really going on long X-C flights? Its the question that keeps me
awake at night (after my eyes are tired from reading Johnson and
Idaflieg data).


Flaps will make a 2% difference in speed. Your skill level will make a
50% difference. Work on developing your skills.

Greg Arnold wrote:


The bottom line is that I've moved beyond the basics. Not to sound
like an egotistical jerk, but I think I'm flying at least as well as
any pilot in my local area that's begun gliding in the last 5 years.
And *that* is why I worry about whether a plane without flaps would be
boring after a couple of years. Will I feel like the flaps are the
one thing keeping me from achieving higher inter-thermal speeds and
really going on long X-C flights? Its the question that keeps me
awake at night (after my eyes are tired from reading Johnson and
Idaflieg data).


Flaps will make a 2% difference in speed. Your skill level will make a
50% difference. Work on developing your skills.



As an example of what can be done in an unflapped glider, look at
Thorsten Streppel's flight yesterday at Parowan:

http://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-2.0...Id=-1665049902

838 km at 117 km/hr in a classic Standard Cirrus. Of course, Thorsten
is a good pilot -- he is achieving most of that 50% difference due to
skill level.

On Jun 18, 9:09*am, Chris Reed wrote:

I'd therefore suggest you look closely at the polar of any glider you're
thinking of buying, concentrating on the 60-80kt band. A good test might
be to work out the Macready 2 or 3 speed to fly - the higher that
number, the flatter the polar.

Chris -

Thank you - someone who understands my point (struggle)! :-)

If you look at the Polars of most gliders, the difference between
flapped and unflapped performance starts showing up around 65 knots,
and the 60 - 80 knot range is where the flaps really differentiate
themselves from the standard-wing ships. This also just happens to be
the speed where my poor Russia's polar falls off a cliff. So I look
at the gains in a Std Class ship over my Russia, and then look at the
*additional* gains of flaps in that speed range, and my mouth waters
at the prospect. ;-)

BTW, we have an Open Cirrus at our field, and he does rather well in
weak conditions. We call it "The Whale" because it just kind of
lumbers along without sinking much, and he stretches out to sample
lots of air. :-)

Your point about being able to sample multiple thermals is *precisely*
the reason I want to upgrade: If I cruise 4 miles to a thermal and it
doesn't work, and I have to cruise 4 more miles (either back to my
starting spot or on to "Plan B"), the difference between a 40:1 ship
and my 30:1 Russia is about an 800 foot altitude difference at the
end. When you're starting at only 3000 - 4000 ft, that extra 800 ft
makes a BIG difference!!!

Its not that my skills are so awesome that I _need_ the performance
now - I just don't want to be limited by the glider after a couple of
years of practice. :-)

(The flatter polar is one reason why I was excited about an SZD-55 for
sale recently; but I didn't quite fit lengthwise - some oddity in my
torso-to-legs ratio at 6' 1" I guess...)

But like I said, I'm working on purchasing a Std Class ship (a
DG-300), so its all a moot point. I started out thinking that a
DG-300 was the way to go back at the beginning of this year, due to
its auto-hookups, visibility, ergonomics, and price-point. And after
all of this I've returned to the idea that those were the right things
to focus on in the first place (before I got sucked into the world of
performance numbers and flap madness)...

So now I'm off to set some records in the DG-300 (since folks say it
isn't competitive with its contemporaries, I need to prove them
wrong)! :-)

Take care,

--Noel

On Jun 18, 11:14*am, Greg Arnold wrote:

838 km at 117 km/hr in a classic Standard Cirrus. *Of course, Thorsten
is a good pilot -- he is achieving most of that 50% difference due to
skill level.

As a side-note:

While I have the utmost respect for Thorsten, I *hate* these kinds of
comments!

In good lift with high bases, everyone can go faster and further.
Claiming statistics from a single flight doesn't necessarily tell you
about the glider's limits - it just tells you what the glider and
pilot are capable of under a specific set of conditions in a specific
area.

Even with a fantastic pilot, a Std Cirrus in my local area is _not_
going to be capable of going 838km. And the added legs or lower sink-
rate of some newer gliders will make a marked performance difference
under most conditions (i.e. think what Thorsten could have done on
that day with an LS-8 or ASW-28 or Discus 2!!).

Simply claiming a distance and speed means nothing, unless you're
doing a true apples-to-apples comparison between gliders on the same
day in the same area. That's why most competitions are held over
multiple days from the same airfield...

Still pretty damn impressive what T did with that Std Cirrus!

Take care,

--Noel

At 14:48 18 June 2008, Andreas Maurer wrote:

Hi Noel,

having read about all your phantastic skills, I have a very bad
message for you.

Unfortunately you are going to master all the fine points of flying a
flapped ship within four weeks. Since you already mastered all the XC
skills, too, there's nothing left to learn for you.

I'd strongly suggest to buy an EB-28, eta or Dick Butler's upcoming
Concordia... with gliders like that you have at least a few more
challenges, keeping gliding interesting for perhaps half a year
longer.

Then again, if what he really wants is a challenge, maybe he
should buy a 1-26 and find out if he *really* knows how to
fly cross country. Great competition ship, too. Real
mano-a-mano, no equipment differences.

Jim Beckman

On Jun 18, 1:13*pm, Jim Beckman wrote:

Then again, if what he really wants is a challenge, maybe he
should buy a 1-26 and find out if he *really* knows how to
fly cross country. *Great competition ship, too. *Real
mano-a-mano, no equipment differences.

Jim Beckman

Jim -

If I wanted to do competition a lot, I would almost certainly do just
that! When I did auto-racing, it was almost always in inexpensive
"spec" classes where equipment was the same for all competitors.

Unfortunately, I'm not in a position to be doing many competitions, we
don't have other 1-26 pilots in the area, and with the low cloud-bases
and hilly/mountainous terrain around Seattle I just would not be able
to have long, "casual" XC flights in a 1-26. I already enjoy good-
length XC flights in the Russia, going slow but floating nicely in
weak lift and poking around the hills.

But the goal is to go further on those weak days, and with reduced
ground-clearance in the hills and mountains, a good glide-ratio is
important (to be able to fly down the drainages and river valleys back
to the home airport when things fall apart).

Someday I'll trip on out to the east where there's more flat-land
soaring and more 1-26 competition; and I'll try a 1-26 contest (and
probably get my butt handed to me, but have fun doing it).

Take care,

--Noel