Help with LOA

Our club has been operating on the grass immediately adjacent to the
paved runway for about 20 or 25 years now at KHRJ, Harnett County
Airport, North Carolina.
We take off from the paved runway and the towplane will land on the
paved runway while the gliders will usually land on the grass. If
there is no power traffic around, the glider may elect to land on the
pavement. We try not to interfere with power traffic operation. All
power traffic flies a standard left-hand pattern while gliders make
right traffic. Seems to work quite well.

Our club also pays to have the grass cut for the portion of grass we
use. The county cuts the grass, too, but only about four times per
year. We cut it every other week. Some conventional-geared airplanes
make use of our grass "runways."

I don't know of a written letter of agreement; just a "gentleman's
agreement" between the club and the FBO.

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA

On Oct 14, 8:40*am, wrote:
I'm posting this to see if we can help a friend. *If you can please
drop her a line at WalkerCL at AOL.com

If you received this email from me then you are a friend to me and/or
a general aviation and soaring. I am asking you to help me, please.

* I have been and am presently fighting a battle for glider operations
at Midway Regional (JWY) a Class E Airport. I have an appointment to
speak to the Director of the Southwest Region, Airports Division. He
is the person in charge of making a ruling on this matter. He has
requested that I bring an example of a Letter of Agreement between any
FSDO (Flight Standards District Office) and any operator having
surface operations on other than the hard surface runway. Glider
operations would be great, but balloon operations, ultralight, or
parachute operations would be wonderful as well. Anything, as long as
the ground operations are outside of the hard surface runway. I have
researched on my computer until my eyes are bad. Please help me. Think
of anywhere you know of where they are operating or staging within
250' of the runway. Do they have an LOA? Can we access that?

* I would not ask for your help if there was any other way. Please see
what you can find and help me with this. I am sorry to be asking for
this, but I am grateful for your help.

Yours,

Carol

The Smoky Mountain Soaring Association has been flying out of Downtown
Island Airport (DKX in Knoxville, TN) for years. The gliders stage at
one end of the paved runway on the grass, then push out and tow off
the pavement when the power traffic is clear. We land on the grass
between the runway and taxiways so as not to block the runway for the
power traffic. The towplane drops the rope and lands on the grass
right beside the paved runway, also. To my knowledge there is no
"formal" written agreement with the airport management, nor with the
FSDO in Nashville. As licensed pilots operating certificated aircraft
out of an airport receiving federal funding, we probably must be
allowed to fly off the runways, but we stay in the grass to avoid
inconveniencing other aircraft. This argument has been successful in
the past when a long-gone, heavy-iron FBO tried to get the airport
authority to ban us with the ultralights. So far, common courtesy and
common sense have prevailed.

Don

On Oct 14, 5:24*pm, "BT" wrote:
I do not believe that FSDO would get involved in this manner.
It is more an agreement or arrangement between the airport operator (local
civil owner) and the club.

The FSDO "might" have some papers between them and that airport owner /
operator.

There are clubs in the Northeast that operate on grass next to a paved
runway but I do not know the distances involved, surely it is less than
250ft.

I find it interesting that you refer to the airport as a Class E airport.
Are you referring to the "airspace designation" over the airport? I see
where JWY is actually in Class G airspace with Class E beginning (proposed
altitude at 700ft AGL) above the airport. There is a proposal to change the
Class E airspace configuration to accommodate new SIAP into the airport. But
the airport itself still remains in Class B airspace.

Is the airport manager attempting to restrict your operations at the
airport?
Is there any reason you cannot operate from the paved surface?
Local powered traffic too busy to accommodate a launch or recovery?
Can you land on pavement and roll clear into the grass?

BT

wrote in message

...



I'm posting this to see if we can help a friend. *If you can please
drop her a line at WalkerCL at AOL.com

If you received this email from me then you are a friend to me and/or
a general aviation and soaring. I am asking you to help me, please.

*I have been and am presently fighting a battle for glider operations
at Midway Regional (JWY) a Class E Airport. I have an appointment to
speak to the Director of the Southwest Region, Airports Division. He
is the person in charge of making a ruling on this matter. He has
requested that I bring an example of a Letter of Agreement between any
FSDO (Flight Standards District Office) and any operator having
surface operations on other than the hard surface runway. Glider
operations would be great, but balloon operations, ultralight, or
parachute operations would be wonderful as well. Anything, as long as
the ground operations are outside of the hard surface runway. I have
researched on my computer until my eyes are bad. Please help me. Think
of anywhere you know of where they are operating or staging within
250' of the runway. Do they have an LOA? Can we access that?

*I would not ask for your help if there was any other way. Please see
what you can find and help me with this. I am sorry to be asking for
this, but I am grateful for your help.

Yours,

Carol



And of course if other operations don't have a letter of agreement but
operate in such a manner and they are pointed out to the FAA then
don't be shocked if that FAA representative asking for the LOA checks
with his peers at those other airports to see what is up.

I have nothing against the FAA enforcing rules, but just remember
where volunteering information or asking the wrong questions might get
you (Mmm Pegasus 3,000 hour limit, FCC radio fines in Texas, for
starters).

Darryl

On Oct 15, 2:19*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Oct 14, 5:24*pm, "BT" wrote:



I do not believe that FSDO would get involved in this manner.
It is more an agreement or arrangement between the airport operator (local
civil owner) and the club.

The FSDO "might" have some papers between them and that airport owner /
operator.

There are clubs in the Northeast that operate on grass next to a paved
runway but I do not know the distances involved, surely it is less than
250ft.

I find it interesting that you refer to the airport as a Class E airport.

From the posts I see hear it sounds to me like the appropriate
response is "from my research there is no such thing as a LOA for
glider operations at airports., Why do you think there is such a
thing?" It would seem that it should be the persin requesting it's
responsibilty to provide and example of it and where it is used.

It seems very common in aviation circles for people to try to make up
requirements that don't exist, just because they think it would be a
good idea.

Brian

On Oct 14, 8:12*am, Tony wrote:
On Oct 14, 7:40*am, wrote:



I'm posting this to see if we can help a friend. *If you can please
drop her a line at WalkerCL at AOL.com

If you received this email from me then you are a friend to me and/or
a general aviation and soaring. I am asking you to help me, please.

* I have been and am presently fighting a battle for glider operations
at Midway Regional (JWY) a Class E Airport. I have an appointment to
speak to the Director of the Southwest Region, Airports Division. He
is the person in charge of making a ruling on this matter. He has
requested that I bring an example of a Letter of Agreement between any
FSDO (Flight Standards District Office) and any operator having
surface operations on other than the hard surface runway. Glider
operations would be great, but balloon operations, ultralight, or
parachute operations would be wonderful as well. Anything, as long as
the ground operations are outside of the hard surface runway. I have
researched on my computer until my eyes are bad. Please help me. Think
of anywhere you know of where they are operating or staging within
250' of the runway. Do they have an LOA? Can we access that?

* I would not ask for your help if there was any other way. Please see
what you can find and help me with this. I am sorry to be asking for
this, but I am grateful for your help.

Yours,

Carol

I know of glider operations that routinely land and sometimes takeoff
using grassy areas next to runways. *I've never heard of anyone
needing to get a Letter of Agreement with the FAA for these types of
ops. *I guess to me it was always common sense. *The glider clubs use
that area more or less at their own risk but they know the condition
and it keeps gliders out of the way of power traffic. *I guess we
always figured you didn't need an LOA for common sense...sorry that
you've gotten to this point.

The following is from the public records.

The airport board was willing to assist the glider operations, special
meeting May 2009.

"Glider Operations: Andy Biery had a two hour discussion with the
Board concerning glider operations
at the Airport. The issue was stationary objects in the runway safety
area while other airplanes take off
and land. Andy read the Board some information from the FAA’s Guide to
Sponsor Obligations for
Airport Compliance, Assurances for Airport Sponsors and the Airport’s
Rules and Regulations which
relate to the subject discussed. Bill Gunn from TxDOT presented the
Board with some relevant
information on the situation. After lengthy deliberation over the
issue, the Board was in agreement that
operating off of the grass is a safer option for right now opposed to
operating off of the asphalt
runway. The intent of the Board is to fix the Object Free Area by
having culverts placed in the drainage
ditch on the east side of the runway so that the gliders and the
equipment can be moved past the
Object Free Area. The Board agreed this should be done during the
runway construction phase
because it will save money by using the dirt from the runway expansion
project as fill for the culvert
project. As suggested by Bill Gunn, Carol Walker volunteered to
contact Frank Fortmann with the San
Antonio FSDO, to see if she can get a copy of the written agreement
that they had come up with for
glider operations at Castroville. Also, it was suggested that other
Airports in a similar situation be
contacted to see if they might provide a copy of the standing letter
of agreement with the FAA. Even
though the Board was aware that making the motion would be going
against the Airport’s written rules
and regulations and the obligations to the FAA, four out of the five
members present were in
agreement that it was best to bend the rules for safety reasons until
a permanent fix can be made.
Paula Baucum motioned to approve moving the glider operations back to
the grassy area and
readdress the issue at the next Board meeting. Also, any operation
that will be occurring east of the
runway, including glider operations, must provide written plans prior
to beginning their operations.
Those currently operating there, including the glider operations, will
be given twenty-four hours to
submit their plans: second by Aubrey Price and carried by a vote of
4-1 with Glynn Hall voting in
opposition."

http://www.mid-wayregional.com/board...pecialmins.pdf

However, this appeared in the July board minutes.

"Aubrey Price made a motion that in light of the email dated June 11,
2009 from Steven Cook,
Program Manager of the Airport Division, FAA, to Bill Gunn, TxDOT, all
aircraft operating out of
Mid-Way Airport must comply with the FAA Order 5200.8 which says that
the Airport must have the
250 feet clearance in the runway safety area; second by George Kent
and carried by a vote of 5
members with Glynn Hall abstaining from a vote."

http://www.mid-wayregional.com/board...July09mins.pdf

FAA Southwest Region, including Texas ADO contacts and others are
http://www.faa.gov/airports/southwest/about_airports/

Some RSA data points
http://www.faa.gov/airports/resource...ion_5200_8.pdf
http://www.faa.gov/airports/southern...a_brochure.pdf
http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/m...50_5300_13.pdf
, page21.

JWY doesn't appear to be certificated for any group or Part 139 use.
As of 10/22/2009, the airport
manager [Andy Biery] is listed as an interim appointment.

I heard through Dave Newill 2-3 years ago that the FAA standard for
hard and grass surfaces on a
particular runway designation disappeared sometime in the 1980's. I
wouldn't see anything wrong
with this under current guidance as long as there's an RSA outside of
the grass use area for staging
and recovery. At JWY, the grass is 250ft from the hard surface to the
drainage ditch. That's the rub I
think. Looking at the airport from Google earth, improvements don't
seem to indicate that the grass
was part of the runway designation, but as Dave Newill suggests, check
the records.

I hope that the FAA ADO will agree to a pragmatic solution like a
temporary waiver until the drainage
project is completed and maybe a grass runway designation. As I
understand it, it isn't the use of the
grass as a runway that's objectional, but that the grass isn't wide
enough to clear the RSA when
staging and recovering. When you have both hard and grass surface
runways, you can't be doing
concurrent operations.

Shoot, looks like they could have a 5500ft winch run with over 600ft
of land back, if they could make
best use of the grass surface.

On the other hand, ambitious airport managers often make their bones
through 'improvements' which
may not be in the best interests of some tenants. Certainly happened
at my local city/county airport,
still uncontrolled but they sure think they need a tower. Airnav
indicates as of 2007 there were four jets
at JWY, and four gliders. I've heard from more than one location that
jet drivers like straight in
approaches and don't like to fly the standard patterns despite the
uncontrolled status of the airport.
Can't say for sure as I've no experience with such traffic mixed with
gliding, but this isn't the first small
airport to be on the 'jet center' map.

Frank Whiteley