reverse the last thing you did.

If you wrote the glider tune, you should get an award of some kind.
It epitomizies all the suffering of those who are forced to fly crap
or are talked into buying an "Elmira" utility sled.
Simply acknowledging the existance of these poor creatures gives hope
that the possibility of advancement does exist.

"If not for those on the bottom, not I see the top"

R

On Jan 26, 6:51*pm, hretting wrote:
If you wrote the glider tune, you should get an award of some kind.
It epitomizies all the suffering of those who are forced to fly crap
or are talked into buying an "Elmira" utility sled.
Simply acknowledging the existance of these poor creatures gives hope
that the possibility of advancement does exist.

"If not for those on the bottom, not I see the top"

R

i made it up all on my own. ode to my car is one of my favorite adam
sandler tunes

mart wrote:
I had an interesting talk in Narromine last week with a local
instructor about my LS6. I bought it because I thought it to have few
vices.

He knew one.One that almost killed him.

Coming back after a racing task he selected +10 flaps, plenty enough
to land with, especially when it's a bit windy.
On final he pulled full airbrakes after gong through some lift on
base. This causes the flaps to come along, out +10 towards Landing
flap. This happens automatically. It only doesn't lock automatically
in that case. When about 20 feet of the deck he put half his airbrakes
away for a smooth landing.

So far, that is what I do as well.

Now the problems started. While putting the airbrakes away the flaps
slipped to negative. Not very handy at 20 feet and relatively slow.
The glider promptly stalled.
The glider did not stall, because the stall attitude with negative flaps
is _very_ nose high; instead, it sank because the lift was reduced when
the flaps went to negative. Had he applied back stick, he would have
decreased the sink rate and, perhaps, hit the ground more slowly.
"Perhaps", because the nose high attitude would cause the tail to hit
first, and that _might_ cause the glider to hit hard on the main gear.
If he'd been 5 feet off the ground instead of 20 feet, that would have
worked fine, especially if he closed the spoilers as a pilot usually
does when the sink rate increases.

Putting the nose forward, then back, might have worked. Hard to say with
out knowing and running the numbers, or trying it!

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

Originally Posted by Tony[_5_]

On Jan 26, 6:51*pm, hretting wrote:
If you wrote the glider tune, you should get an award of some kind.
It epitomizies all the suffering of those who are forced to fly crap
or are talked into buying an "Elmira" utility sled.
Simply acknowledging the existance of these poor creatures gives hope
that the possibility of advancement does exist.

"If not for those on the bottom, not I see the top"

R

i made it up all on my own. ode to my car is one of my favorite adam
sandler tunes

Good job, funny take on adam sandler!

Hey, just what is an 'Elmira utility'? Are we talking about SGS's ?
Scott

Duodiscus - x models on have interconnected landing flap and airbrake,
working in conjunction so that opening airbrake moves landing flap down.

Means that stall speed stays constant with flap proportional to airbrake
at all times. Quite neat especially as it avoids the nose up attitude
typical of non-flap ship.

Bruce


Dave Nadler wrote:
On Jan 26, 5:57 am, mart wrote:
I had an interesting talk in Narromine last week with a local
instructor about my LS6. I bought it because I thought it to have few
vices.

He knew one.One that almost killed him.

Coming back after a racing task he selected +10 flaps, plenty enough
to land with, especially when it's p on landinga bit windy.
On final he pulled full airbrakes after gong through some lift on
base. This causes the flaps to come along, out +10 towards Landing
flap. This happens automatically. It only doesn't lock automatically
in that case. When about 20 feet of the deck he put half his airbrakes
away for a smooth landing.

So far, that is what I do as well.

Now the problems started. While putting the airbrakes away the flaps
slipped to negative. Not very handy at 20 feet and relatively slow.
The glider promptly stalled.

He than did what he was thought by a test pilot." If everything goes
to ****, reverse the last thing you have done."

So contrary to what you would normally do when stalled, which is to
push the nose over , he pulled the brakes again, which in turn pulled
the flaps out again. He said that it saved his bacon. Took out the
undercarriage and hurt his back, but he walked away.

I've heard the Ventus 1 suffers from the same problem. Maybe some
other gliders as well. I thought I should share it with you just in
case.

cheers,

Mart

VH-NII

That's not supposed to happen in LS-6, as the flaps
are supposed to catch the detent. But it can happen.
There's some kind of spring that pulls the flap
handle towards the detent; sounds like that isn't
quite right in that particular glider. I owned a
couple of these gliders and always selected full
flap before using spoiler, which prevents this
possibility.

IIRC other gliders that retract flap with retracting
spoiler a
- early mosquito and mini-nimbus
- Calif A-21
Early Ventus does not have this problem IFF
proper flap detect is selected prior using
the spoilers.

Any others ?
Hope that helps someone out there,
Best Regards, Dave "YO electric"

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

Hi All,

Thanks for most responses. I have learned a few things.

About the flaps always being locked, the flap lever moves in a long
slot with on one side the hooks to lock them. They only work in one
direction, to prevent them going forward. That is why the can move out
of lock,backwards, when moving the airbrakes. There is no spring that
pushes them back into the side with the hooks.

I know that this is used by pilots when flying faster then 150km/u or
80 knots with is the point of moving from 0 to -5 flap. Flying a
90knots you might want to use -1 flap to get best performance. Letting
the flaps float makes that happen.

Coming Saturday I will see if I can do a pratice run doing exactly
what happened , only with a bit of height.

Should have flown today..10k base with 8knot climbs. Work got in the
way.

Cheers,

Mart

The best possibility I can think of for the LS-6 is that something
(certainly not winter clothing at Narromine, this time of year) was
pushing outward on the flap handle to prevent it from latching into
the ratchet track.

I once experienced strange behavior during take off in a glider I had a few
hundred hours in. The trim lever was caught and moved to its back stop by
the band of my wrist watch. I felt something tear on my wrist, a little
later during take off I realized that the trim was completely wrong, but it
took me some time to understand what really happened ...

Michael

jcarlyle wrote:
Bob,

In the spirit of getting to know how things work, could you please
elaborate on "Some aren't even locks, but rather 'suspenders' to
another 'belt' somewhere. (My current ship's 'apparent' gear downlock
falls into that category, according to the designer.)"

Thanks!

-John


I was referring to my Zuni I's (S/N 3) gear downlock system.

For years I believed the primary downlock was 'an LS-like' gas strut in
the system, (probably) backed up by the over-centering action of the
wheel-support structure steel tubing. (It's a *strong* strut.)

Eventually, if I've understood George Applebay (the designer) correctly,
I was informed I had things backward in the sense the gas strut was
intended primarily to help raise the gear, though residual pressure in
up/down positions *does* assist in keeping the geometry unchanging.
There *is* a mechanical uplock, while the downlock was intended to be
the gear geometry in conjunction with braking action.

Because it does me good to believe my primary downlock is still the gas
strut, I treat the gear system as if it is.

Regards,
Bob W.

I understand completely, now - thank you, Bob!

-John

Bob Whelan wrote:
I was referring to my Zuni I's (S/N 3) gear downlock system.

For years I believed the primary downlock was 'an LS-like' gas strut in
the system, (probably) backed up by the over-centering action of the
wheel-support structure steel tubing. (It's a *strong* strut.)

Eventually, if I've understood George Applebay (the designer) correctly,
I was informed I had things backward in the sense the gas strut was
intended primarily to help raise the gear, though residual pressure in
up/down positions *does* assist in keeping the geometry unchanging.
There *is* a mechanical uplock, while the downlock was intended to be
the gear geometry in conjunction with braking action.

Because it does me good to believe my primary downlock is still the gas
strut, I treat the gear system as if it is.

On Jan 27, 2:37*am, mart wrote:
Hi All,

Thanks for most responses. I have learned a few things.

About the flaps always being locked, the flap lever moves in a long
slot with on one side the hooks to lock them. They only work in one
direction, to prevent them going forward. That is why the can move out
of lock,backwards, when moving the airbrakes. There is no spring that
pushes them back into the side with the hooks.

I know that this is used by pilots when flying faster then 150km/u or
80 knots with is the point of moving from 0 to -5 flap. *Flying a
90knots you might want to use -1 flap to get best performance. Letting
the flaps float makes that happen.

Coming Saturday I will see if I can do a pratice run doing exactly
what happened , only with a bit of height.

Should have flown today..10k base with 8knot climbs. Work got in the
way.

Cheers,

Mart

In any case, select at least +2 flap before landing;
IIRC this setting will not be pushed further back
when deploying spoilers.
Check it in the cockpit !

Hope this helps,
Best Regards, Dave "YO electric"