Separating the men from the boys

Dave- Nothing at all. On 2 July 1971, I was standing on the roof of the tower

at NAS Broomstick and watched the #7 Blue Angels F-4 make a pass around
the tower, right to left, @ 80 deg bank, over the grass and I was looking
down on the right wingtip. BRBR

The 'Blues' have waivers of every shape and kind...
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

Red- Nothing! 20, 200, 2,000, 20,000 feet. Its all the same as long as you
don't
bump into anything. BRBR

I guess ya all miss my point. I flew less than 500 ft AGL many times but on
debrief I was always no lower than the OPNAV min, and my Mode 'C' was off....
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

On 11/2/03 9:56 AM, in article ,
"Pechs1" wrote:

Doug- What's wrong with 200 feet? BRBR


Welll, been a while since I've been in and I have been known to fly less than
500 ft AGL on occasion but isn't the OPNAV min for non combat ops 500 feet??
Was when I was flyin'...Lower for the A-G guys that completed a 'step down'
program?? This was a F-14, VF-213...
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

Since I'm in a squadron with a 500 FT AGL SOP, I don't exercise my 200 FT
muscles any more but...

Back in the day when I flew VA (the REAL Medium Attack kind--not that
Corsair stuff), our SOP called for a 200 FT AGL minalt that we flew at very
regularly--500 FT AGL night/IMC.

IIRC, OPNAV 3710... Series currently calls for a minalt of 200 FT.

And... the VFA FRS LATT syllabi have waivers that allow them a 100 FT
demo--not comfortable with the IP's in the trunk. The current LATT dive
recovery rules of 25 for 1500, 15 for 750, 5 for 250 (and 20 for 1,000, 10
for 500, and 5 for 250... again IIRC) reflect a 200 FT AGL minalt too.

I may peruse the 3710 one more time though to make sure I'm not telling
tales out of school. It's been a while since I've put my eyeballs on that
particular page.

--Woody

Woody,

Back in the day when I flew VA (the REAL Medium Attack kind--not that
Corsair stuff), our SOP called for a 200 FT AGL minalt that we flew at very
regularly--500 FT AGL night/IMC.

My recollection as well, from the early 1970s.

Not sure, but I THINK that on the OB-16 route (Eastern Oregon canyons) A-6s
were authorized lower than 500 AGL at night if the system was tight and the
crew felt OK about things.

Owl sends.
--
Mike Kanze

436 Greenbrier Road
Half Moon Bay, California 94019-2259
USA

650-726-7890

"When was the last time in world history in which 'suicide' and 'martyrdom'
were the code of enlightened action admired by any society?"

- Roy Fassel (WALL STREET JOURNAL, 10/27/03)


"Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal" wrote in message
...
On 11/2/03 9:56 AM, in article
,
"Pechs1" wrote:
[rest snipped]

Mike/Woody,
In the 80's and early 90's
Day VFR 200' if the route allowed. Night TC we used 1000' I did go down to 500'
in certain approved areas. ie; Bordman.
For weapons delivery what ever was allowed in the tac manual.
I used 100' /300kias for a laydown on the nuke delivery at Fallon was it B-16?
Not very tactical but I always got a bull.
We were doing a night anti boghammer exercise in the IO and I ws using 100'
500kias for the profile. the plane would do 520
Sparky


Not sure, but I THINK that on the OB-16 route (Eastern Oregon canyons) A-6s
were authorized lower than 500 AGL at night if the system was tight and the
crew felt OK about things.

Owl sends.

If it were anybody else, CAG wouldhave pitched him off the fantail
afterwards, but because it was Hunyack,nothing of consequence (that a lowly
LTJG would know about) ever happened

Why the special dispensation?

On 11/2/03 8:08 PM, in article , "Mike
Kanze" wrote:

Woody,

Back in the day when I flew VA (the REAL Medium Attack kind--not that
Corsair stuff), our SOP called for a 200 FT AGL minalt that we flew at very
regularly--500 FT AGL night/IMC.

My recollection as well, from the early 1970s.

Not sure, but I THINK that on the OB-16 route (Eastern Oregon canyons) A-6s
were authorized lower than 500 AGL at night if the system was tight and the
crew felt OK about things.

Owl sends.

Owl,

I think that the OB-16 turned into the IR-346... Great route... Not the
VR-1355 through the Cascades, but still a lot of fun.

I can still remember my first night low-level on that route when I finally
had enough guts to peak outside on a 1/4 moon night only to see the shadows
of the huge mountains surrounding me.

I quickly buried my head in the instruments again realizing that the "video
game" in front of me had pretty stiff consequences if I lost. I'm sure
we've all had those personal moments. Probably doesn't compare to the 'Nam
though.

--Woody

On 11/2/03 10:16 PM, in article
, "Elmshoot"
wrote:

Mike/Woody,
In the 80's and early 90's
Day VFR 200' if the route allowed. Night TC we used 1000' I did go down to
500'
in certain approved areas. ie; Bordman.
For weapons delivery what ever was allowed in the tac manual.
I used 100' /300kias for a laydown on the nuke delivery at Fallon was it B-16?
Not very tactical but I always got a bull.
We were doing a night anti boghammer exercise in the IO and I ws using 100'
500kias for the profile. the plane would do 520
Sparky


Not sure, but I THINK that on the OB-16 route (Eastern Oregon canyons) A-6s
were authorized lower than 500 AGL at night if the system was tight and the
crew felt OK about things.

Owl sends.


Owl,

What I actually *did* as a young idiot and what was 3710/SOP are two
different stories, of course. I think Pechs' original question was a 3710
issue... But I like the digression!

For me (late '80's early '90's), we flew 1000' AGL (3rd range bin?) on our
first trips back into the night/IMC low level world to refresh our TC quals,
but SOP was 500 feet (2nd range bin was close enough), and usually (even on
the 342/344/346) we'd fly that (mostly on ridge crossings, of course). When
NVG's came along, we'd no-kidding fly 500' AGL... And back it up with the
system.

Personal records. 100'AGL over water at night at mil power--same as you.
(Why? Because I was dumb. It's not like anyone can see you or you get
extra points for going that low and fast.) 140' AGL, 534 knots (off the
freeze data) at Boardman on a night straight path delivery (60' hit). 500'
AGL up the John Day River Valley at night in the goo. B/N's radar was
practically a pin point. Both of us agreed not to do that any more. I
routinely saw straight and level 530 knots (or so) down low on the gauge.

OBTW... 1.15M on the meter coming back from an FCF A. I don't think we were
actually supersonic though.

As an aside, the VFA guys used to (don't know if they still do it) used to
keep low altitude NVG quals. The guy with the biggest cahones is the one
with the low altitude NVG-I. YIKES. You couldn't pay me to do that without
a TC system. The one in the Hornet doesn't count.

--Woody

Doug- What I actually *did* as a young idiot and what was 3710/SOP are two
different stories, of course. I think Pechs' original question was a 3710
issue BRBR

As I get older, my memory goes the way of late nights and pitching decks...less
fun. But I was never in a squadron where the min wasn't 500 ft AGL...all
Fighter squadrons.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

On 11/3/03 8:24 AM, in article ,
"Pechs1" wrote:

Doug- What I actually *did* as a young idiot and what was 3710/SOP are two
different stories, of course. I think Pechs' original question was a 3710
issue BRBR

As I get older, my memory goes the way of late nights and pitching
decks...less
fun. But I was never in a squadron where the min wasn't 500 ft AGL...all
Fighter squadrons.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

That's why all of us Intruder pukes made fun of you... Except when you were
flying sweep or BARCAP for us.

Pechs, I think you've hit the nail on the head. Now that you mention it, I
do remember flying low-levels with the Tomcat guys and having the SOP
difference come up. I'm pretty sure that's what it was--a community
differences issue.

--Woody