boulder mid-air

Mike Schumann wrote:

From the description the Cirrus pilot was just not looking and in
effect just walked
out into the road without looking to see whether a car was coming. I
don't
want to be insensitive to the family of the Cirrus pilot, but the
fault was his
and not the fact that glider activity was present. In my experience,
many IFR pilots
just don't look out for VFR traffic and expect ATC to keep them clear
of ALL traffic.
Is that stressed enough in IFR training? ( I know this is before any
NTSB ruling
and is based on hearsay evidence only.)
The reality is that other aircraft are difficult to see, even if you
know where to look. What is very frustrating is that affordable ADS-B
technology exists that could have prevented this accident.
Unfortunately commercialization is being delayed by the FAA's
obsession with IFR ADS-B applications, while certification standards
for low cost VFR devices are on the back burner.
And $500 PCAS units have been for sale for several years. I wonder if a
PCAS in one or more of the aircraft involved would have averted the
accident.
- -

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

In this case parachutes may have helped too.

As I understand, flying gliders without a chute is quite common in the
USA. I'll never understand this.

In message , John Smith
writes
In this case parachutes may have helped too.

As I understand, flying gliders without a chute is quite common in the
USA. I'll never understand this.

Me neither, but this time the folks in the glider weren't the ones that
needed a personal parachute. I feel naked in a GA plane without one...

--
Surfer!

On Mon, 08 Feb 2010 12:05:46 +0000, Surfer! wrote:

In message , John Smith
writes
In this case parachutes may have helped too.

As I understand, flying gliders without a chute is quite common in the
USA. I'll never understand this.

Me neither, but this time the folks in the glider weren't the ones that
needed a personal parachute. I feel naked in a GA plane without one...

I don't quite know why. It would be near impossible to get out of many GA
aircraft when they are flying.

Think about exiting from the rear seats in almost any Cessna, the rear
seat in a Piper Cub or, for that matter, the right front seat of a Piper
Dakota. The door opens forwards and the one time I flew in one I don't
recall seeing any emergency jettison for the hinge pins.

IMO in any of these situations a parachute is irrelevant unless you're
got quite a few thousand feet between you and the ground.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Feb 7, 3:02*pm, None wrote:

From the description the Cirrus pilot was just not looking ....

Probably wrong:
I have done a geometric analysis of cockpit visibility.
- First, sharp vision -- the fovea -- is only about 1% of the sphere
surrounding us. Our brain integrates peripheral vision and
interpolates detail gathered from the scanning that the eyes do
unconsciously.
- Second, consider all the space eclipsed by stuff:
- the bill of your cap
- the whole of the aircraft beneath you (the Cirrus was descending,
one account says)
- the panel and the sun visor
- the TCAS unit standing on top of the panel
- everything behind you in all directions
- Third, the fact that the aircraft you're about to collide with, even
if it's in your field of view (only about 25% of the sphere) is a
speck on the windscreen that isn't moving -- it's just growing. Our
vision is very sensitive to movement, but insensitive to growth. It's
the movement that directs our gaze, to cause foveal vision to capture
a clear impression of the moving object.
- So: by what miracle of chance do you expect the Cirrus pilot to have
seen through his airplane, to have glimpsed the Pawnee?

*I don't want to be insensitive to the family of the Cirrus pilot, but the
fault was his...In my experience, many IFR pilots
just don't look out for VFR traffic and expect ATC to keep them clear of ALL traffic.

How often have you been the IFR pilot flying with the aid of ATC in
VMC, in a busy airspace? Other traffic is VERY difficult to see even
when one knows altitude and azimuth; much traffic, even collision
traffic, cannot be seen because both aircraft are eclipsed from the
pilot by their own aircraft.
In addition, VFR aircraft often do not check in with ATC to verify
their altitude, or have non-encoding transponders, so that's a
mystery. And then there's the fact that some of us are essentially
invisible to ATC even with a transponder: when we thermal, we're
relatively stationary to radar, which then puts us in "coast" mode,
and removes our blip from the display.
The only way to mitigate this risk effectively is to mandate that
all aircraft, regardless of class, carry operating anticollision
devices.
Unfortunately, the rule-making process is so slow that by the time
any new thing gets through, it's at least decade-old technology and
therefore the target of flames from people who know about the new
technology (ADS-B v. FLARM, for example)
In this regard, at the SSA convention 2 weeks ago, one of the
European attendees said that now that FLARM is established, too many
glider pilots are flying with their eyes in the cockpit and depending
too much on FLARM. Complacency affects every one of us.

Some news articles that contain additional information:

http://www.dailycamera.com/news/ci_14352511
The most complete photos, videos, and summary.

From http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news...00/detail.html
"The Boulder County Coroner has identified the third victim, the pilot
of the Piper Pawnee, as Alexander Howard Gilmer, 25, of Evergreen. His
family asked for their privacy.
On his MySpace page, he described himself as a base jumper, sky diver,
pilot and marine."

"The glider narrowly avoided disaster after pilot Reuben Bakker cut
his craft loose from the ill-fated Piper seconds before the collision,
landing safely 3 miles away and saving his life and those of his
passenger and her 11-year-old son. Their names were not available.

"The glider narrowly avoided disaster after pilot Reuben Bakker cut
his craft loose from the ill-fated Piper seconds before the collision,
landing safely 3 miles away and saving his life and those of his
passenger and her 11-year-old son. Their names were not available.

The glider narrowly avoided disaster after pilot Reuben Bakker cut his
craft loose from the ill-fated Piper seconds before the collision,
landing safely 3 miles away and saving his life and those of his
passenger and her 11-year-old son. Their names were not available.

From http://www.denverpost.com/headlines/ci_14355506
The glider pilot was Reuben Bakker...

From http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_14350203
Sue Patton, 53, and her 8-year-old daughter, Sarah Weller, ran
outside just in time to see two people plunge out of the plane. Patton
said it appeared to her that they jumped.
"The plane was burning really strong," she said. "They really didn't
have a choice.""

As I understand, flying gliders without a chute is quite common in the
USA. I'll never understand this.

Me neither, but this time the folks in the glider weren't the ones that
needed a personal parachute.

I know, but it was close.

BTW, some may argue that passengers wouldn't jump anyway. This has been
proven wrong. One ore two years ago, there was a successfull bail out by
a passenger after a mid-air in Switzerland. The passenger was 80 years
old and it was his first flight...

On Feb 7, 10:14*pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Mike Schumann wrote:

*From the description the Cirrus pilot was just not looking and in
effect just walked
out into the road without looking to see whether a car was coming. *I
don't
want to be insensitive to the family of the Cirrus pilot, but the
fault was his
and not the fact that glider activity was present. *In my experience,
many IFR pilots
just don't look out for VFR traffic and expect ATC to keep them clear
of ALL traffic.
Is that stressed enough in IFR training? ( I know this is before any
NTSB ruling
and is based on hearsay evidence only.)
The reality is that other aircraft are difficult to see, even if you
know where to look. *What is very frustrating is that affordable ADS-B
technology exists that could have prevented this accident.
Unfortunately commercialization is being delayed by the FAA's
obsession with IFR ADS-B applications, while certification standards
for low cost VFR devices are on the back burner.

And $500 PCAS units have been for sale for several years. I wonder if a
PCAS in one or more of the aircraft involved would have averted the
accident.
- -

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" atwww.motorglider.org

Maybe Eric, BUT I've got one that I use in my Cessna 180 (Zoan) and
I've watched several planes fly by relatively close with no indication
on the unit. I don't trust it.

On Mon, 8 Feb 2010 12:48:32 +0000 (UTC), Martin Gregorie
wrote:

On Mon, 08 Feb 2010 12:05:46 +0000, Surfer! wrote:

In message , John Smith
writes
In this case parachutes may have helped too.

As I understand, flying gliders without a chute is quite common in the
USA. I'll never understand this.

Me neither, but this time the folks in the glider weren't the ones that
needed a personal parachute. I feel naked in a GA plane without one...

I don't quite know why. It would be near impossible to get out of many GA
aircraft when they are flying.

Think about exiting from the rear seats in almost any Cessna, the rear
seat in a Piper Cub or, for that matter, the right front seat of a Piper
Dakota. The door opens forwards and the one time I flew in one I don't
recall seeing any emergency jettison for the hinge pins.

Those are available. Very few light airplanes have them installed
because the GA industry, in its finite wisdom, doesn't want passengers
thinking about scary things.

That's why your Cessna didn't have a fire extinguisher, too.

rj

On Feb 8, 8:43*am, glidergeek wrote:
Maybe Eric, BUT I've got one that I use in my Cessna 180 (Zoan) and
I've watched several planes fly by relatively close with no indication
on the unit. I don't trust it.-

If by "trust it" you expect it to alert you to all threat traffic then
that lack of trust is very healthy. I don't trust mine to alert me to
all traffic either. It certainly cannot alert for an aircraft with no
transponder, or an aircraft with the transponder off, or standby, and
probably not mode A. Mine does alert me traffic I may not otherwise
have spotted and I find it a very useful augmentation to the "see" of
see and avoid.

Last weekend I found myself surprised by a head on same altitude
threat while flying my PA-28. I didn't see the other aircraft until
we were about 10 seconds from collison and he showed no sign of ever
seeing me. PCAS did not alert me and I don't know why. I still don't
plan on flying without it.

Andy

Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Mon, 08 Feb 2010 12:05:46 +0000, Surfer! wrote:

In message , John Smith
writes
In this case parachutes may have helped too.
As I understand, flying gliders without a chute is quite common in the
USA. I'll never understand this.
Me neither, but this time the folks in the glider weren't the ones that
needed a personal parachute. I feel naked in a GA plane without one...

I don't quite know why. It would be near impossible to get out of many GA
aircraft when they are flying.

Think about exiting from the rear seats in almost any Cessna, the rear
seat in a Piper Cub or, for that matter, the right front seat of a Piper
Dakota. The door opens forwards and the one time I flew in one I don't
recall seeing any emergency jettison for the hinge pins.

IMO in any of these situations a parachute is irrelevant unless you're
got quite a few thousand feet between you and the ground.



It was in the 80's. I had landed at a North Texas fielkd used by
jumpers, and an instructor hurried to me and said a jumper had missed
the plane, and could I give him a ride to 5 thousand? I expressed
doubt that a C-150 was capable, but he said it was possible if the ride
slowed well for the jump, and after departure, broke left. Which I did.
Yep, I was surprised that the jumper could exit without a struggle
too....

Brian W