Fed: Planes flying in "commercial" airspace must get GPS

VOR-DME writes:

In fairness to MX I think he meant that in the event of GPS unavailability,
airliners would be able to resort to their INS navigators, which small planes
do not have.

Yes.

I am not sure though that airliners will continue to be equipped
with INS systems after NextGen implementation, and even if they are this is
not good enough, as it cannot reliably provide better than RNP 1.0 and has no
approach capability.

That is one of my concerns also.

Many were hoping that LORAN-C would be retained and even
developed as a backup, but that was dashed recently when the system was
definitively abandoned.

Thanks to the same reckless policies that may decommission VORs and ultimately
ILS.

VOR’s are costly to maintain, and the FAA wants to
move away from them as quickly as possible (going back to my statement that
Victor airways are obsolescent and pilots so equipped should be filing \G as
much as possible already).

Safety is expensive. If you don't care about safety, you can save a lot of
money.

VORs can be used for RNAV, too. Flight management systems already do this,
since they use a blend of navigational aids in order to provide a more
reliable and precise position for the aircraft.

It could be that the best backup for GPS will be other satellite-based
structures, GONASS or soon to be GALILEO.

They all have common failure modes and vulnerabilities. A solar flare could
knock them all out at once. The only way around this is to have alternate
methods for navigation, such as VORs.

Mxsmanic wrote:
VOR-DME writes:

In fairness to MX I think he meant that in the event of GPS unavailability,
airliners would be able to resort to their INS navigators, which small planes
do not have.

Yes.

I am not sure though that airliners will continue to be equipped
with INS systems after NextGen implementation, and even if they are this is
not good enough, as it cannot reliably provide better than RNP 1.0 and has no
approach capability.

That is one of my concerns also.

Many were hoping that LORAN-C would be retained and even
developed as a backup, but that was dashed recently when the system was
definitively abandoned.

Thanks to the same reckless policies that may decommission VORs and ultimately
ILS.

VOR’s are costly to maintain, and the FAA wants to
move away from them as quickly as possible (going back to my statement that
Victor airways are obsolescent and pilots so equipped should be filing \G as
much as possible already).

Safety is expensive. If you don't care about safety, you can save a lot of
money.

VORs can be used for RNAV, too. Flight management systems already do this,
since they use a blend of navigational aids in order to provide a more
reliable and precise position for the aircraft.

It could be that the best backup for GPS will be other satellite-based
structures, GONASS or soon to be GALILEO.

They all have common failure modes and vulnerabilities. A solar flare could
knock them all out at once. The only way around this is to have alternate
methods for navigation, such as VORs.

You have no clue what the jamming susceptibility of modern GPS is or what
features exist (current and planned) to thwart it.

In reality, jamming effects a small area and is a real concern only to the
military which would expect jamming in the area of enemy targets.

A solar flare large enough to "knock them all out at once" would also take
out a lot of other stuff making the lack of GPS a minor issue.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

writes:

You have no clue what the jamming susceptibility of modern GPS is or what
features exist (current and planned) to thwart it.

Actually I do, as I've been following GPS since long before the average person
became aware of its existence. I'm afraid jamming is a serious potential
problem, for a number of reasons related directly to the technology of GPS and
to satellite communications in general. Spoofing is a serious issue, too,
which is why the DoD started encrypting its P code years ago. Unfortunately,
encryption is not a realistic option for civil aviation users, because of the
logistics of key distribution, and because it would make the signal unusable
to other user communities.

In reality, jamming effects a small area and is a real concern only to the
military which would expect jamming in the area of enemy targets.

Anyone can jam a GPS signal, and a small area is more than sufficient--if it
happens to be centered on New York City, for example. Spoofing requires more
sophistication, but hardly anything unattainable for bad guys.

A solar flare large enough to "knock them all out at once" would also take
out a lot of other stuff making the lack of GPS a minor issue.

If GPS is the only navigation option, it's a major issue even if other systems
are affected as well. VORs, at least, would still be available.

In article ,
says...


That is one of my concerns also.



I’m sure the FAA is relieved to know that you’re on the case, but if you
believe someone with your limited understanding of the system is going to
dream up failure modes that the NextGen developers, in their haste, have not
worked out to the tenth decimal place then you really have a leaky roof, and
probably a crack in the toilet bowl as well.

As far as the VOR’s are concerned, you’re barking up the wrong tree. ADS-B OUT
is the first mandated item, but far from the last. ADS-B IN will follow
shortly, CPLDC datalink and UAT transceivers as well. At this point we are one
ARINC fiber cable away from full ground-based control of every airplane in the
system (not that this is a stated goal, but to demonstrate that we are soon
achieving far better system integration than your 1980’s instrument textbook
lets on). So the VOR’s are really superfluous with a few exceptions, which
will be retained along with the odd NDB. It will be important to maintain a
minimum structure of surveillance radar as a backup, but then even though I
know the system ten times better than you do I would not be so presumptuous as
to imagine I have something to tell them about implementation.

Where the battle lines will be drawn is over the issue of cost per
participating aircraft and equipment mandates that the AOPA is likely to see
as overkill and overpriced for GA.

VOR-DME writes:

I’m sure the FAA is relieved to know that you’re on the case ...

The FAA has its head firmly buried in the sand.

As far as the VOR’s are concerned, you’re barking up the wrong tree. ADS-B OUT
is the first mandated item, but far from the last. ADS-B IN will follow
shortly, CPLDC datalink and UAT transceivers as well. At this point we are one
ARINC fiber cable away from full ground-based control of every airplane in the
system (not that this is a stated goal, but to demonstrate that we are soon
achieving far better system integration than your 1980’s instrument textbook
lets on). So the VOR’s are really superfluous with a few exceptions, which
will be retained along with the odd NDB.

What takes over when GPS fails? Loran is gone. NDBs and VORs supposedly will
be gone. What's left? A magnetic compass?

It will be important to maintain a minimum structure of surveillance radar
as a backup ...

Radar should be permanently retained. It helps prevent spoofing, for example.

Where the battle lines will be drawn is over the issue of cost per
participating aircraft and equipment mandates that the AOPA is likely to see
as overkill and overpriced for GA.

The FAA seems to be much more a friend of airlines than a friend of GA.