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#11
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Substandard Italian workmanship renders first 787s unsafe
On Jun 25, 8:48*pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
a writes: The article says nothing about defects in the unit assembled in Italy. It does say the issue is associated with how it had been attached, torqued, and shimmed to the correct position when it had been attached to the 'next assembly up'. Incorrect assembly is a defect. Now for your assumption and allegation to be correct you'll simply have to provide some evidence the part in question was incorrectly torqued and shimmed to the next assembly up by the Italian firm. Based on the facts presented, that the part that had been incorrectly mated to the fuselage was manufactured in Italy is what would be called in a logic class incidental and gratuitous information. Such information in academic settings is often used as a red herring, a device to mislead. I'm surprised you made the unsupported assumptions you did. . |
#12
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Substandard Italian workmanship renders first 787s unsafe
"Mxsmanic" wrote in message ... Flaps_50! writes: Where in the article does it say the Italian parts are substandard? As I read it it's an assembly problem (shimming and bolt torque) which takes place in the US... Yes. The defects are in the assembly, not the hardware itself (as I understood the article). Thus, unqualified or careless workers, inadequate QC, etc., which, unfortunately, is exactly what I'd expect from an average Italian supplier. With what have Italian Companies supplied you over the past few years? In what way were they defective? -- JohnT |
#13
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Substandard Italian workmanship renders first 787s unsafe
Mxsmanic wrote:
If I recall correctly, this isn't the first time I've read about an Italian company screwing things up. And you somehow think that sort of thing is unique to Italian companies? After ~30 years of working in various aspects of the engineering profession, with a goodly load of supplier qualification work in that time, I can tell you with some confidence that the country in which a given company is located has precisely zero to do with whether or not they're going to be an acceptable supplier. Bob M. |
#14
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Substandard Italian workmanship renders first 787s unsafe
Mxsmanic wrote:
Flaps_50! writes: Where in the article does it say the Italian parts are substandard? As I read it it's an assembly problem (shimming and bolt torque) which takes place in the US... Yes. The defects are in the assembly, not the hardware itself (as I understood the article). Thus, unqualified or careless workers, inadequate QC, etc., which, unfortunately, is exactly what I'd expect from an average Italian supplier. And is your experience with supplier selection and qualification as extensive as, say, your experience in piloting? Bob M. |
#15
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Substandard Italian workmanship renders first 787s unsafe
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#16
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Substandard Italian workmanship renders first 787s unsafe
Mxsmanic wrote:
JohnT writes: Lots of people would consider that Italian technology is at least as good as anything emanating from Chicago. Then Boeing must have picked the wrong Italian partner. And this appears to be an issue with workmanship, not technology or design. The tails were simply not put together correctly, implying unqualified, careless, or lazy workers. Factory workers make mistakes all the time. It's normal. If anything, it says something about the Italian quality control who let the parts out in the first place, and Boeing quality control who let the parts into the assembly line. If I recall correctly, this isn't the first time I've read about an Italian company screwing things up. There are a number of classic stereotypes concerning European cultures, and unfortunately many of them have a strong basis in fact. I wonder why Boeing put anything in Italy. It's not like the Italians have any strong airlines that would be buying dozens of 787s, and if all Boeing cared about was price, they could find cheaper suppliers in other countries. |
#17
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Substandard Italian workmanship renders first 787s unsafe
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#18
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Substandard Italian workmanship renders first 787s unsafe
Bob Myers writes:
And you somehow think that sort of thing is unique to Italian companies? No. It afflicts companies in Latin countries to some extent, depending on how macho the country and culture are. Some other non-Latin countries have the same problem. You can recognize a culture like this by its high levels of poverty and corruption. After ~30 years of working in various aspects of the engineering profession, with a goodly load of supplier qualification work in that time, I can tell you with some confidence that the country in which a given company is located has precisely zero to do with whether or not they're going to be an acceptable supplier. My experience and training have shown significant cultural differences that cannot be ignored. |
#19
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Substandard Italian workmanship renders first 787s unsafe
Tom P writes:
Factory workers make mistakes all the time. It's normal. The number and magnitude of mistakes they make depend a great deal on corporate and social culture. I recall Akio Morita describing such a problem. Sony was building Trinitrons in both Japan and the USA. In both countries, the tubes had to meet the same tolerances. Nevertheless, the company found that the Japanese tubes were always far closer to perfection than the USA tubes. Finally, management figure it out. The Japanese always tried to get things perfect, no matter what the accepted tolerances were, whereas the Americans didn't care whether it was perfect or not, as long as it fell within the tolerances. To fix this, Sony made the tolerances far tighter for the USA tubes. Their quality then improved significantly. It was all about culture. If anything, it says something about the Italian quality control who let the parts out in the first place, and Boeing quality control who let the parts into the assembly line. The best way to ensure quality is to build it right the first time, not to throw out half the inventory during quality inspections. |
#20
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Substandard Italian workmanship renders first 787s unsafe
JohnT writes:
With what have Italian Companies supplied you over the past few years? In what way were they defective? I recall a pair of Gucci shoes that fell apart about a month after I bought them, and a wallet from the same company that had a similar lifespan. I have a refrigerator and air conditioner built in Italy that have worked well for years. Nothing prevents an individual company from resisting cultural tendencies, but it's difficult. |
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