FLARM Technology for the US Gliding Community

Thanks WE, BB and YO.
Jim

On Sep 14, 11:53*am, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Sep 14, 8:50*am, Mike the Strike wrote:





On Sep 14, 7:52*am, Darryl Ramm wrote:

I tried to follow your links, but there was nothing there.

http://www.GliderPilot.org/FLARM

Sigh. (again)

Darryl

From a recent discussion at our ASA racing group, I think you are now
preaching to the choir on the benefits of FLARM.

The problem we have is that pilots in the USA are not going to have
the availability of an inexpensive unit, such as those used in Europe,
Australia and Africa. *PowerFLARM appears to be a wonderful unit with
many more benefits and I can see one in my future, but the cost is
three to four times that of the regular unit and will have a much
harder time reaching the same levels of adoption as in other
countries. *I predict that there will be a lot of push-back if the
rules committee attempts to mandate the use of a $2,000 unit in
contests.

Mike

(It wasn't me "preaching", I assume Mike meant the OP but I'll reply
anyhow).

Where does "three to four times" come from?

The advertised price of a Flarm Classic unit in the UK looks like £495
(US$770) or £587 (US$913) with IGC recorder. Neither price including
VAT. (seehttp://www.lxavionics.co.uk/flarm.htm)

In Australia the advertised price of a miniOzFLarm black box is AU$769
plus likely a display like the Artronic for AU$239. That is a total of
AU$1008 (US$951). We could argue about the possibility of using this
with a PDA only display, but I think you really want the hardwired
display/controller in addition to a PDA. (seehttp://www.swiftavionics.com..au)

In Germany the advertised price of a Flarm Classic unit (with IGC
recorder) is EUR685 (US$891).
Seehttp://shop.segelflugbedarf24.de/index.php?cat=c2_FLARM--and-ADS-B.html.

The introductory price for PowerFLARM in the USA was US$1495 (with
PCAS, 1090ES and IGC up to three diamonds). The USA list price
mentioned was $1695. I hear that the initial allocation at the
introductory price has sold out.... (maybe time to start asking for an
extension or bulk buy program etc.)

Am I missing something? I'm not disputing the new generation
PowerFLARM is more expensive than older Flarm units available
overseas, but I just want people to be careful making pricing
comparisons (and be clear what features like IGC recorders are in
different products - yes not everybody may want that feature, but lets
just be clear on any comparisons). BTW I've seen some people confuse
the pricing on a Flarm display to that of a full Flarm unit, so again
a good idea to be clear exactly what is in any price comparison.

Darryl

Yes, you are, FLARM Classic will not be available in the US.

On Sep 14, 11:01*am, flyingmr2 wrote:
I found the correct links here.

http://www.gliderpilot.org/FLARM

http://www.gliderpilot.org/FlarmOurView

John

Thanks for posting this, I don't understand why the links in the
original email don't resolve correctly.

On 9/14/2010 11:00 AM, M North wrote:
On Sep 14, 11:50 am, Mike the wrote:

... I predict that there will be a lot of push-back if the
rules committee attempts to mandate the use of a $2,000 unit in
contests.

My understanding is that all FLARM units are compatible with each
other.

I assume that anyone willing to give up the 1090 MHz features and the
extended range, and who doesn't care what the FCC thinks, would be
happy using the classic FLARM in USA.
Regular FLARM units run on a frequency that is not permitted in the US.

--
Mike Schumann

On Sep 15, 7:12*am, Mike Schumann
wrote:
On 9/14/2010 11:00 AM, M North wrote: On Sep 14, 11:50 am, Mike the *wrote:

... I predict that there will be a lot of push-back if the
rules committee attempts to mandate the use of a $2,000 unit in
contests.

My understanding is that all FLARM units are compatible with each
other.

I assume that anyone willing to give up the 1090 MHz features and the
extended range, and who doesn't care what the FCC thinks, would be
happy using the classic FLARM in USA.

Regular FLARM units run on a frequency that is not permitted in the US.

--
Mike Schumann

That is not true. Flarm devices automatically change frequency
depending on the location. That support is in legacy Flarm units. The
issue as pointed out clearly by others is those units are not FCC
approved and cannot legally be sold/operated in the USA.


Darryl

Regular FLARM units run on a frequency that is not permitted in the US.

I thought that they all operated on 868 MHz, in the SRD band. Does
that band not exist in the US? If the units imported into US use a
different frequency, then the rest of us should leave our FLARM at
home when visiting!

On Sep 15, 8:34*am, M North wrote:
Regular FLARM units run on a frequency that is not permitted in the US.

I thought that they all operated on 868 MHz, in the SRD band. *Does
that band not exist in the US? *If the units imported into US use a
different frequency, then the rest of us should leave our FLARM at
home when visiting!

Flarm does not "all operate[ed] on 868 MHz". This is all handled
automatically by the device.

From the Flarm classic manual...

"GPS-controlled automatec frequency tuning: SRD-F-Band 868.0 to 868.6
MHz
(Europe/Africa), New Zealand 869.25 MHz, Australia around 921 MHz,
America around
915 MHz".

The 915 MHz in the USA is the ISM band. The automatic frequency
selection is just a really elegant feature that Flarm engineered into
their products. But again, its a matter of what is FCC approved to
enable a device to be legally sold and legally used in the USA.

Darryl

On Sep 15, 7:57*am, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Sep 15, 7:12*am, Mike Schumann
wrote:





On 9/14/2010 11:00 AM, M North wrote: On Sep 14, 11:50 am, Mike the *wrote:

... I predict that there will be a lot of push-back if the
rules committee attempts to mandate the use of a $2,000 unit in
contests.

My understanding is that all FLARM units are compatible with each
other.

I assume that anyone willing to give up the 1090 MHz features and the
extended range, and who doesn't care what the FCC thinks, would be
happy using the classic FLARM in USA.

Regular FLARM units run on a frequency that is not permitted in the US.

--
Mike Schumann

That is not true. Flarm devices automatically change frequency
depending on the location. That support is in legacy Flarm units. The
issue as pointed out clearly by others is those units are not FCC
approved and cannot legally be sold/operated in the USA.

Darryl- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I sure hope that those who already have the European flarm will still
use it in the US rather than turning it off due to FCC beaurocrats.
We would probably have at east one pilot alive today if the FCC
approved those units earlier.

Ramy

On Sep 15, 11:25*am, Ramy wrote:
We would probably have at east one pilot alive today if the FCC
approved those units earlier.

That seems to assign some blame to FCC.

Why would FCC be expected to approve an equipment for which no
approval application was made. Why would anyone have made an
approval application for an equipment which was not marketed for use
in USA and prohibited by the manufacture(s) from being used in USA.

For those that think the door will be open to import the older FLARM
units to US and use them without FCC approval, don't forget that the
unit's firmware has an embedded drop dead date. It would be very easy
for the next firmware cycle to inhibit operation for GPS locations in
USA.

Am I the only one that suspects a large part of the US PowerFLARM cost
is going towards a legal fund?

Andy

On Sep 15, 12:19*pm, Andy wrote:
On Sep 15, 11:25*am, Ramy wrote:

We would probably have at east one pilot alive today if the FCC
approved those units earlier.

That seems to assign some blame to FCC.

Why would FCC be expected to approve an equipment for which no
approval application was made. * Why would anyone have made an
approval application for an equipment which was not marketed for use
in USA and prohibited by the manufacture(s) from being used in USA.

For those that think the door will be open to import the older FLARM
units to US and use them without FCC approval, don't forget that the
unit's firmware has an embedded drop dead date. *It would be very easy
for the next firmware cycle to inhibit operation for GPS locations in
USA.

Am I the only one that suspects a large part of the US PowerFLARM cost
is going towards a legal fund?

Andy

You may be right but my point is that, as often the case, we have the
technology (which should normally be the biggest challenge) but it
almost always hampered by paperwork/FCC/FAA/liablity/(name your
favorite bureaucrat agency here).
This is much less so with consumer devices.
I understand this is to prevent chaos, but if so, how come everyone
can mail order an aviation radio and interfere with ATC if they feal
like?

Ramy