Do you support establishing a US Club Class? Yes answers only!

On Sep 24, 9:52*am, Andy wrote:
On Sep 21, 12:14*pm, John Cochrane
wrote:



Just to be clear, there is nothing I would like to see more than a
vibrant club class with 60 pilots duking it out every year, then going
on to do well at the worlds. Make it happen. I think the whole RC and
team committee feel that way. There is nobody, absolutely nobody,
"against" club class. There is a worry that going about it wrong could
hurt the very successful sports class, produce a small weak
"specialist" class, and lead to more small contests that are money-
losers for the organizers. Address those worries, and you'll get what
you want.

It's very informative to look at the team selection lists John linked
to:

http://soaringweb.org/US_Team/HomePage.html

To be clear, here is what we are doing right now for Club Class world
team selection:

Five pilots "qualified" for the world team in Club Class in 2010 with
one scoring more than 80 points and the others scoring in the 50s and
below. Keep in mind that the points are based only on scores of
participating Club Class gliders, not all competitors, in the Sports
Class Nationals. Including all competitors would lower the scores
further.

Only one pilot flying a Club Class glider even completed two Sports
Class National contests in the past three years, finishing 19th out of
40 and 10th out of 30. The other two pilots each withdrew from one of
the two nationals they competed in. For the contests they completed
they finished 15th and 16th.

The conclusion is that right now qualifying for the world team in Club
Class is not highly competitive, despite the fact that lots of pilots
(many of them highly ranked) compete in Sports Class nationals in the
US. If you can make it to two contests in three years and average out
to the top half of the score sheet you're good for the top slot. For a
second slot you don't even have to do that and you don't have to beat
the other Club Class gliders at the contests where you compete because
the effect of merely attending a second national contest gets you on
the team.

The other classes are in varying states of health, but none as bad as
Club Class:

Open Class isn't in great shape in terms of numbers, but at least
there you have 5-7 pilots who show up at 2-3 contests every three
years and the top three seeded pilots each have won a nationals. There
are 5 pilots above 80 points and three above 90.

World Class has a smaller number of even more dedicated pilots who
duke it out almost every year. Four pilots above 80 points, one above
90, but almost no participation beyond that.

Standard Class has a problem with broad, consistent attendance. Three
pilots above 80 points, all three of them above 90.

18 Meter Class is reasonably healthy. It has 10 pilots scoring above
80 points and four above 90.

15 Meter Class is the healthiest and most competitive with 14 above 80
points and 8 above 90. Twenty-six pilots in 15 Meter have flown
multiple national or international contests in the past three years.

The goal should be to get a cadre of Club Class pilots who can compete
at the top third of the scoresheet to go to two out of three Sports
Class Nationals and try to get their team selection points above 85 or
90 - or host a Club Class nationals that draws more than 15 pilots,
most with real competition track records. Until that actually happens
for a few years, I agree with the team selection committee, the best
bet is either to draw from the broader pool of pilots flying in Sports
Class or not field a Club Class team at all.

BTW, the contention that Club Class gliders can't compete in a
handicapped contest with modern ships is not consistent with the
facts.Just look at the scoresheets. There are Club ships in the top 10
- including at least one win at the national level. One Parowan super
regional was won by a Twin Astir - beating a world team pilot in a
modern ship. The handicaps, if anything favor Club class ships on
average.

If you want a vibrant Club Class make it happen! I think everyone
would love to see it. It's not the rules that stand in the way, it's
apathy.

9B

I think partly that these numbers reflect the difficulty of travelling
all the way across the country to compete in the second national.
Open class has mostly been held in the West or Southwest, so it's
reasonable to get there. Standard and Sports class, in particular,
have bounced back and forth from New York or Georgia to California.
World class has been more of an East(ish) contest, only being as
far west as Hobbs once in 6 years.

Anyway, that's a whole 'nuther barrel of worms we like to indulge
in too often. However, I think what we're going to get is just a list
of pilots that already qualified for the WGC in another class, and
who will wind up flying an unfamiliar plane. Sigh. The real hope
is to get a viable club class really going.

So, I wholeheartily agree that we need to get more club class
contests going, even at a national level. I don't have a venue
to offer (my airport is too busy, lacks an alternate runway,
is hemmed in by 3 class C airports, and lacks camping space),
but I am willing to help (even though I'd rather fly my club class
plane!).

-- Matt

At 13:52 24 September 2010, Andy wrote:

It's very informative to look at the team selection lists John linked
to:

http://soaringweb.org/US_Team/HomePage.html

To be clear, here is what we are doing right now for Club Class world
team selection:

Five pilots "qualified" for the world team in Club Class in 2010 with
one scoring more than 80 points and the others scoring in the 50s and
below. Keep in mind that the points are based only on scores of
participating Club Class gliders, not all competitors, in the Sports
Class Nationals. Including all competitors would lower the scores
further.

You might note that the WGC 2010 results were not factored in yet. That
pulls 2 more pilots above 50, one of them above 90 (nice job Sean!).

Only one pilot flying a Club Class glider even completed two Sports
Class National contests in the past three years, finishing 19th out of
40 and 10th out of 30. The other two pilots each withdrew from one of
the two nationals they competed in. For the contests they completed
they finished 15th and 16th.

You might also note that all 3 of them flew gliders not on the IGC list in
one or both of the qualifying contests. They are only on the expanded SSA
list.


snip


If you want a vibrant Club Class make it happen! I think everyone
would love to see it. It's not the rules that stand in the way, it's
apathy.

It might be more the cost of competing in US Nationals than apathy. Its
hard enough for the "rich guys" in the other FAI classes, harder still
for a cost sensitive class. But the cost of a Nationals entry is a
pittance compared to the cost of flying in an overseas WGC, even with US
Team support. Then again, the experience is priceless...

I support establishing a US Club Class, even though I won't likely go
back to flying old gliders again to compete in it.

-Dave

On Sep 24, 8:10*am, David Leonard
wrote:
At 13:52 24 September 2010, Andy wrote:

It's very informative to look at the team selection lists John linked
to:

http://soaringweb.org/US_Team/HomePage.html

To be clear, here is what we are doing right now for Club Class world
team selection:

Five pilots "qualified" for the world team in Club Class in 2010 with
one scoring more than 80 points and the others scoring in the 50s and
below. Keep in mind that the points are based only on scores of
participating Club Class gliders, not all competitors, in the Sports
Class Nationals. Including all competitors would lower the scores
further.

You might note that the WGC 2010 results were not factored in yet. That
pulls 2 more pilots above 50, one of them above 90 (nice job Sean!).

Only one pilot flying a Club Class glider even completed two Sports
Class National contests in the past three years, finishing 19th out of
40 and 10th out of 30. The other two pilots each withdrew from one of
the two nationals they competed in. For the contests they completed
they finished 15th and 16th.

You might also note that all 3 of them flew gliders not on the IGC list in
one or both of the qualifying contests. They are only on the expanded SSA
list.

snip

If you want a vibrant Club Class make it happen! I think everyone
would love to see it. It's not the rules that stand in the way, it's
apathy.

It might be more the cost of competing in US Nationals than apathy. Its
hard enough for the "rich guys" in the other FAI classes, harder still
for a cost sensitive class. But the cost of a Nationals entry is a
pittance compared to the cost of flying in an overseas WGC, even with US
Team support. *Then again, the experience is priceless...

I support establishing a US Club Class, even though I won't likely go
back to flying old gliders again to compete in it.

-Dave

Good adds Dave. It seemed odd to see Sean down the list - nice job
indeed!

Your comments do take us back to finding ways to make competition less
onerous in terms of time and distance - mostly at the National level.
It's really bad for Club, but also an issue in other classes.

My suggestion from a while back is that we set maximum seeding points
for ANY contest in proportion to the number and quality (in terms of
seeing points, say) of the pilots flying in each contest within each
class. Then you could pick WGC team members off that list (with the
WGC bonus). In some cases a Super Regional contest might afford more
points than an under-attended national contest. This would allow the
Club Class to put all their wood behind one large and one small
contest each year on opposite sides of the country. That way you can
at least score some points every year and if you did really well, make
the team.

The other alternative is to expand the WGC criteria beyond three years
- not my favorite option.

9B

On Sep 24, 12:11*pm, Andy wrote:
On Sep 24, 8:10*am, David Leonard



wrote:
At 13:52 24 September 2010, Andy wrote:

It's very informative to look at the team selection lists John linked
to:

http://soaringweb.org/US_Team/HomePage.html

To be clear, here is what we are doing right now for Club Class world
team selection:

Five pilots "qualified" for the world team in Club Class in 2010 with
one scoring more than 80 points and the others scoring in the 50s and
below. Keep in mind that the points are based only on scores of
participating Club Class gliders, not all competitors, in the Sports
Class Nationals. Including all competitors would lower the scores
further.

You might note that the WGC 2010 results were not factored in yet. That
pulls 2 more pilots above 50, one of them above 90 (nice job Sean!).

Only one pilot flying a Club Class glider even completed two Sports
Class National contests in the past three years, finishing 19th out of
40 and 10th out of 30. The other two pilots each withdrew from one of
the two nationals they competed in. For the contests they completed
they finished 15th and 16th.

You might also note that all 3 of them flew gliders not on the IGC list in
one or both of the qualifying contests. They are only on the expanded SSA
list.

snip

If you want a vibrant Club Class make it happen! I think everyone
would love to see it. It's not the rules that stand in the way, it's
apathy.

It might be more the cost of competing in US Nationals than apathy. Its
hard enough for the "rich guys" in the other FAI classes, harder still
for a cost sensitive class. But the cost of a Nationals entry is a
pittance compared to the cost of flying in an overseas WGC, even with US
Team support. *Then again, the experience is priceless...

I support establishing a US Club Class, even though I won't likely go
back to flying old gliders again to compete in it.

-Dave

Good adds Dave. It seemed odd to see Sean down the list - nice job
indeed!

Your comments do take us back to finding ways to make competition less
onerous in terms of time and distance - mostly at the National level.
It's really bad for Club, but also an issue in other classes.

My suggestion from a while back is that we set maximum seeding points
for ANY contest in proportion to the number and quality (in terms of
seeing points, say) of the pilots flying in each contest within each
class. Then you could pick WGC team members off that list (with the
WGC bonus). In some cases a Super Regional contest might afford more
points than an under-attended national contest. *This would allow the
Club Class to put all their wood behind one large and one small
contest each year on opposite sides of the country. That way you can
at least score some points every year and if you did really well, make
the team.

The other alternative is to expand the WGC criteria beyond three years
- not my favorite option.

9B

Here we go with one of our favorite containers of worms... :-)
Actually I kinda like that idea with a counter-continental super-
regional.
However, at the moment all that a super-regional gives you is more
scheduled days and more seeded pilots from outside the region. The
pilot ranking value isn't any higher. It would be worthwhile to
compare
how the ranking done under the IGC system matches up, although it
would require a fair bit of number crunching.

-- Matt

What is the Club Class?

How is that different from Sport Class?

If it is a class where you can fly a lower performance glider with a
handicap against others
then I would be interested in flying.

Like Wayne I have not entered a contest yet since it seems futile to
do so with my
Schreder HP-11 against all the modern glass.

I think soaring contests in general would have wider appeal if they
were accessable to
more glider pilots.

Anything that makes that possible would be a good thing in my opinion.

On Sep 21, 3:24*pm, jb92563 wrote:
What is the Club Class?

How is that different from Sport Class?

If it is a class where you can fly a lower performance glider with a
handicap against others
then I would be interested in flying.

Like Wayne I have not entered a contest yet since it seems futile to
do so with my
Schreder HP-11 against all the modern glass.

I think soaring contests in general would have wider appeal if they
were accessable to
more glider pilots.

Anything that makes that possible would be a good thing in my opinion.

Don't worry about the performance of your glider. The GTA races
(informal and not sanctioned) have the gamut of performance ships. I
just competed in Region V West and we had a Silent competing. The
handicap put him in the top few places every day even though his raw
scores were near the bottom. 13 meters and still competitive. I
would say that your first few contests will be a success if you make
it around the course and don't embarrass yourself on the grid and
landing. That has been my attitude this first year and I have had a
blast at Perry and Chilhowee. Stated simply, don't refrain from
competing because you are afraid you will not win! Enjoy the
performance you already own and learn the ropes of competition - we
need the participation and you will enjoy it.

Lane
XF

On Tue, 21 Sep 2010 12:24:12 -0700, jb92563 wrote:

What is the Club Class?

A handicapped list of gliders. The types included on the list and the
handicaps they use are defined by the FAI. Only gliders on the list are
eligible for the international Club class.

How is that different from Sport Class?

My understanding is that the SSA, like the BGA, has its own handicapping
system which covers just about any glider that can be flown in a regional
or national competition. The BGA's list certainly includes everything
from the Falke and Slingsby T.21 to the ASW22bl and Nimbus 4. Like your
Sports class the range of types is too wide to allow fair and sensible
tasks to be set in weak conditions.

So, an observation from the right side of the pond: I hope it may help
this discussion.

My club runs a Regionals every year that usually attracts 50-60 entries.
All gliders are handicapped using the BGA handicaps. The gliders are
split into two classes on the handicap. Each class is tasked separately,
so the lower performance gliders can be given a shorter task, but both
tasks are launched at almost the same time. The classes alternate
position on the grid each day, typically with a short launching gap
between classes, so they can use separate start times to ease congestion
etc. The workload on the CD and organisation isn't much different from
running a single task for all gliders.

At first glance this split might work quite well for an American combined
Club and Sports class contest with the main difference that Club class
would only include gliders eligible for the FAI Club class.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

In article
,
Tim wrote:

Hello All:

If you have not figured it out, this is a topic I care passionnately
about...

Could we try and give the members of the US RC that post here/read
opinions here regularly an idea of the possible support for
establishing a stand alone US Club Class Nationals?

I recognize that the devil is alwawsy in the details, but please
answer yes to the following question, maybe a substantial turn-out
might impress upon the RC/USSTC.

While I appreciate the anti-Club Class Camp and their arguments,
supporters need to come up with some sort of data to support the
viability or confirm the impossibility of this Class here in the USA.

So, if you are not a supporter of this concept, or you do not
affirmatively know of a pilot who might be willing to fly such a
class, please do not post to this thread.


Question: Would you, or someone you know, would willingly fly or offer
your Club Class glider to someone who would fly at a stand-alone US
Club Class Nationals?

Thank You,

Tim S. McAllister
EY

2004,2006 US Team - Club Class
2005, 2007 FAI World GP

I am very much in favor of the U.S. club class and have flown both that
Region 5 has hosted.

"Berry" wrote in message
...
In article
,
Tim wrote:


I am very much in favor of the U.S. club class and have flown both that
Region 5 has hosted.

Yes, and did very well, too.

As the Organizer of the two Club Class events, I have to put my thoughts in.
We should do away with the rule about prior US Team members being
ineligible. A World Champion is, after all, just that. So we need to send
our best pilots. We should not eliminate those of already proven ability.
But they need to know the nuances of flying the now medium performance
gliders, and the "tweaking" thereof. So they should have to win flying Club
Class gliders.

So--the Sports Class can be the "for fun" class. Club Class can be the
"serious" class.

I would favor that approach. A combined Sports/Club Nationals could be
viable.

Hartley Falbum
"KF" USA

On Sep 21, 4:45*pm, "HL Falbaum" wrote:
"Berry" wrote in message

...

In article
,
Tim wrote:

I am very much in favor of the U.S. club class and have flown both that
Region 5 has hosted.

Yes, and did very well, too.

As the Organizer of the two Club Class events, I have to put my thoughts in.
We should do away with the rule about prior US Team members being
ineligible. A World Champion is, after all, just that. So we need to send
our best pilots. We should not eliminate those of already proven ability.
But they need to know the nuances of flying the now medium performance
gliders, and the "tweaking" thereof. So they should have to win flying Club
Class gliders.

So--the Sports Class can be the "for fun" class. Club Class can be the
"serious" class.

I would favor that approach. A combined Sports/Club Nationals could be
viable.

Hartley Falbum
"KF" USA

My thoughts exactly. I've given my club mates long enough to answer
for themselves: we've got 6 club class flyers. We've all flown in
the
Cordele club class contest, except for 1 guy that hasn't flown any
contests yet (but will next year, probably).