GPS Question: What to buy

Dennis, I'm curious to know how you like the 196 vs 195. I have a 195 and
swear by it! I was looking at the 196, but not sure what features it has
to justify 'trading up' (aviation usage only. Dont' care about ground / auto
usage). I'd appreciate your comments.

-Jonathan

"Dennis O'Connor" wrote in message
...
Interesting...
I have to note parenthetically that I have both the 195 and 196 in the
cockpit... That I fly all over the eastern USA with these units, and
sometimes in really nasty weather where they are invaluable, and rarely
have
I noted a degraded EPE, and it was both units the few times it has
happened - which was maybe three times over a number of years... I do use
windshield mounted antennas, not the stub antennas... I also have never
noticed any deviation between what the 196 is calling my position and what
the localizer/DME is showing on an instrument approach, and I use the GPS
on
all instrument approaches as a backup to the primary nav... YMMV

Denny

Although the 196 is great, I've recently started to have second
thoughts... ...

I totally agree, but they always stated it was a liability issue to
show the terrain and obstructions. Let's hope that they do not do
away with it now that they own UPSAT. Keep your fingers crossed.

What we may see is the UPSAT brand name on all of the aviation items.
Garmin has been wanting out of aviation for a while and now that
Gary's gone, maybe Min will be able to do what he pleases. Also, you
must agree that there's more money in the masses. GPS for personal
use, autos, boats vehicle tracking, etc.

On 26 Aug 2003 20:13:24 -0700, Bob Fry wrote:

Until Garmin starts offering terrain and obstacle data, why get their
units?

Well worth the upgrade... I would do it again in a heartbeat (until
something better comes along!!!) It has lots more stuff in the database...
And lots of bells and whistles that I don't use but someone else might...
If feasible, keep the 195 for the other yoke...
If someone's cash flow is really tight, then stick with a used/trade-in
195... It's the next best thing to a 196 in a portable...

A few weeks back the 195 on the copilot yoke was very handy when we got
snookered between two lines of CB going up to 60,000+ feet, out over Lake
Erie near Cleveland (ahh, those lovely Great Lakes weather machines, and
don't believe everything the nice man at atc tells you)... I was busy
flying in turbulence and rain and looking for the GulfstreamV that I was to
tuck in behind on final, and the copilot (it was really nice that there was
one) was able to call the intersections and the turn onto final with the 195
on his yoke allowing me to keep eyes out of the cockpit.. Made it almost a
routine landing on a crosswind runway with wind at 24 gusting to 34...

Denny
"jfee" wrote in message
news:7dU2b.206705$Oz4.54769@rwcrnsc54...
Dennis, I'm curious to know how you like the 196 vs 195. I have a 195
and
swear by it! I was looking at the 196, but not sure what features it has
to justify 'trading up' (aviation usage only. Dont' care about ground /
auto
usage). I'd appreciate your comments.

-Jonathan

"Dennis O'Connor" wrote in message
...
Interesting...
I have to note parenthetically that I have both the 195 and 196 in the
cockpit... That I fly all over the eastern USA with these units, and
sometimes in really nasty weather where they are invaluable, and rarely
have
I noted a degraded EPE, and it was both units the few times it has
happened - which was maybe three times over a number of years... I do
use
windshield mounted antennas, not the stub antennas... I also have never
noticed any deviation between what the 196 is calling my position and
what
the localizer/DME is showing on an instrument approach, and I use the
GPS
on
all instrument approaches as a backup to the primary nav... YMMV

Denny

Although the 196 is great, I've recently started to have second
thoughts... ...

Here is Garmin's reply to the "Lock to Road" feature..........

"In land mode it won't remember the 'off' setting, but the default aviation
setting is 'off' and it will stay off until changed manually. If they are
experiencing something different, their units should be updated with current
operating software and potentially need to be reset. The 196 will not
autoroute in aviation mode, and autorouting is the reason for 'lock to road'.
There should never be a reason that it should turn that feature on in aviation
mode unless you actually go to the proper menu and turn in on manually.

Best Regards,

Andrew Haaven
Aviation Support Specialist
800-800-1020





In article , says...

I haven't had that problem. I did have it on lock to roads whe I first
got it and it was annoying in that is would kind of jerk the little plane
sideways (changing the picture of where the plane was heading). I turned it
off and have not had the problem again.

I don't know about yours, but mine does definately remember the
preference of lock to roads when changing modes. I don't see why yours would
be different. Maybe you are remembering an older software release.

Even if it does go back to lock to roads, I don't see the big deal. i
would expect them to fix it, but it wouldn't really bother me for
navigation. I use the other screen with the bank indicator when doing
approaches and such.

Wayne

"Ted Lindgreen" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Wayne wrote:
The "lock to roads feature " can be turned on or off and remembers your
preference in each mode (Aviation, Land, Water). The 196 is an awesome
unit.

Sorry, but this is only partly true:

The "lock to roads feature" can be turned on or off, but it does
NOT remember the "off" preference: in land mode it gets turn on
automatically as a side-effect of a mode change, a "go to", a route
selection, and many other key-press-seqences which seem unrelated
to this "feature" (like merily switching it on and off). In aviation
mode I have observed it to be turned on for no obvious reason
several times. In marine mode I've not yet seen it turned on, but
I hardly ever use it in this mode, so I don't know how it behaves
here..

I agree that it is a great unit, but having to check (and sometimes
reset) "lock to road" in aviation mode every time after switch-on
is silly. Actually I think it's silly that "lock to road" is present
(and can be silently working!) in aviation and water mode.

-- ted

I have my Garmin GPS 90 with an outdated aviation database for sale... of
course the airports don't move so as long as it's for VFR flight, it's fine.
I don't NEED to sell it but if I received a good offer, I would. Contact me
at if you are seriously interested. Of course you can
update the database through Garmin.

Garmin says this at http://www.garmin.com/products/gps90/

"The GPS 90 became the best-selling aviation handheld by offering pilots
powerful navigation features and tremendous value all in the smallest GPS
package you can buy. Add in a crisp, backlit LCD display, an easy to use
operating system and up to 20 hours of use on just four AA batteries, and
it's no wonder the GPS 90 is the preferred choice of pilots around the
world.
The GPS 90 features a full Jeppesen® database complete with runway diagrams,
airport frequencies and airport services and altitude sensitive, sectorized
Class B and C airspace alerts. All on a 2.2 x 1.5 display that offers
superior readability, even in direct sunlight. And it's easily accessible
through a few simple keystrokes. The GPS 90's moving map display keeps track
of your every move, along with nearby airports, navaids and waypoints. With
continuous track, bearing, distance and ground speed data on screen, you can
use the moving map to navigate right to your destination.

But the power of the GPS 90 doesn't stop there. The navigation page provides
steering guidance to your destination, complete with VNAV, ETE and
crosstrack data. Top it off with a full complement of standard accessories
like a universal yoke mount, power cable and antenna mount, and you've got
the handheld GPS pilots just can't get enough of-the Garmin® GPS 90."

Jerry
--
Jerry Bransford
To email, remove 'me' from my email address
KC6TAY, PP-ASEL
See the Geezer Jeep at
http://members.cox.net/jerrypb/

"Dave Butler" wrote in message
...
Ted Lindgreen wrote:

The 196 is a great GPS, but it has two "features", that, had I
know it before, would have caused me to never have bought it.

1. Lock-to-Road.
The 196 is a combined aviation/automotive/marine GPS.
For road-usage Garmin build in a feature, "Lock-to-Road",
to coverup both map- and GPS errors. As some maps are
pretty bad, and it seems to try to "fix" pre-SA GPS errors,
this can offset your actual position by hundreds of feet.
I have observed my 196 a few times to kick into "Lock-to-Road"
mode when flying above a road. Needless to say that whatever the
instrument then tells you is complete bogus, especially the HSI
is "fun" to watch.....
You will ask: "why the heck don't you disable this??".
The problem is that the 196 automagically enables again it all
the time as side-effect of other settings. There is no way to
set it to off and keep it off (this is confirmed by Garmin).
The only work-around I found sofar is it to religiously check
and reset it every time I at startup and then not touch power,
mode, settings, etc., anymore.

I've not had my 196 for as long as you've had yours, but I've never
observed
this behavior. I'll look for it, though. My observation would have been
that
lock-to-road is in effect in land-mode, but not in aviation mode. I wonder
whether we have different software versions. I'm on 2.7 (from memory). I
think
3.0 is available but I haven't downloaded it.

Go to http://www.garmin.com and put in "lock to road" in the search field
and it
lists several software changes that have been made in that feature.


2. Dead-Reckoning.
Whenever the 196 looses the satellites (which does happen
now and then near certain airports and/or with certain radio
settings), it does not tell you. Instead, it covers up this
fact and just extrapolates whatever your course was for no
less than 30 seconds. You can set an alarm on "accuracy",
but also this alarm is delayed by 30 seconds. So, if you
loose the satellites, only after 30 seconds you find out
that the information the 196 was giving you was bogus.


I have seen this behavior. My old Garmin 90 worked the same way. It's not
a
problem for me.

Remove "SHIRT" to reply directly.

Try ebay motors under pilot gear....

--
--
Good Flights!

Cecil E. Chapman, Jr.
PP-ASEL

"We who fly do so for the love of flying.
We are alive in the air with this miracle
that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"

- Cecil Day Lewis-

Check out my personal flying adventures: www.bayareapilot.com
"Jerry Bransford" wrote in message
news:bJabb.4097$gv5.3842@fed1read05...
I have my Garmin GPS 90 with an outdated aviation database for sale... of
course the airports don't move so as long as it's for VFR flight, it's
fine.
I don't NEED to sell it but if I received a good offer, I would. Contact
me
at if you are seriously interested. Of course you can
update the database through Garmin.

Garmin says this at http://www.garmin.com/products/gps90/

"The GPS 90 became the best-selling aviation handheld by offering pilots
powerful navigation features and tremendous value all in the smallest GPS
package you can buy. Add in a crisp, backlit LCD display, an easy to use
operating system and up to 20 hours of use on just four AA batteries, and
it's no wonder the GPS 90 is the preferred choice of pilots around the
world.
The GPS 90 features a full Jeppesen® database complete with runway
diagrams,
airport frequencies and airport services and altitude sensitive,
sectorized
Class B and C airspace alerts. All on a 2.2 x 1.5 display that offers
superior readability, even in direct sunlight. And it's easily accessible
through a few simple keystrokes. The GPS 90's moving map display keeps
track
of your every move, along with nearby airports, navaids and waypoints.
With
continuous track, bearing, distance and ground speed data on screen, you
can
use the moving map to navigate right to your destination.

But the power of the GPS 90 doesn't stop there. The navigation page
provides
steering guidance to your destination, complete with VNAV, ETE and
crosstrack data. Top it off with a full complement of standard accessories
like a universal yoke mount, power cable and antenna mount, and you've got
the handheld GPS pilots just can't get enough of-the Garmin® GPS 90."

Jerry
--
Jerry Bransford
To email, remove 'me' from my email address
KC6TAY, PP-ASEL
See the Geezer Jeep at
http://members.cox.net/jerrypb/

"Dave Butler" wrote in message
...
Ted Lindgreen wrote:

The 196 is a great GPS, but it has two "features", that, had I
know it before, would have caused me to never have bought it.

1. Lock-to-Road.
The 196 is a combined aviation/automotive/marine GPS.
For road-usage Garmin build in a feature, "Lock-to-Road",
to coverup both map- and GPS errors. As some maps are
pretty bad, and it seems to try to "fix" pre-SA GPS errors,
this can offset your actual position by hundreds of feet.
I have observed my 196 a few times to kick into "Lock-to-Road"
mode when flying above a road. Needless to say that whatever the
instrument then tells you is complete bogus, especially the HSI
is "fun" to watch.....
You will ask: "why the heck don't you disable this??".
The problem is that the 196 automagically enables again it all
the time as side-effect of other settings. There is no way to
set it to off and keep it off (this is confirmed by Garmin).
The only work-around I found sofar is it to religiously check
and reset it every time I at startup and then not touch power,
mode, settings, etc., anymore.

I've not had my 196 for as long as you've had yours, but I've never
observed
this behavior. I'll look for it, though. My observation would have been
that
lock-to-road is in effect in land-mode, but not in aviation mode. I
wonder
whether we have different software versions. I'm on 2.7 (from memory). I
think
3.0 is available but I haven't downloaded it.

Go to http://www.garmin.com and put in "lock to road" in the search
field
and it
lists several software changes that have been made in that feature.


2. Dead-Reckoning.
Whenever the 196 looses the satellites (which does happen
now and then near certain airports and/or with certain radio
settings), it does not tell you. Instead, it covers up this
fact and just extrapolates whatever your course was for no
less than 30 seconds. You can set an alarm on "accuracy",
but also this alarm is delayed by 30 seconds. So, if you
loose the satellites, only after 30 seconds you find out
that the information the 196 was giving you was bogus.


I have seen this behavior. My old Garmin 90 worked the same way. It's
not
a
problem for me.

Remove "SHIRT" to reply directly.

I just updated out to that last database that will be released. It's a free
download from Garmin and a simple job if you have the cord.

When you download, it takes you to the payment page but the price is $0.00.


--
Roger Long
Jerry Bransford wrote in message
news:bJabb.4097$gv5.3842@fed1read05...
I have my Garmin GPS 90 with an outdated aviation database for sale... of
course the airports don't move so as long as it's for VFR flight, it's
fine.
I don't NEED to sell it but if I received a good offer, I would. Contact
me
at if you are seriously interested. Of course you can
update the database through Garmin.

Garmin says this at http://www.garmin.com/products/gps90/

"The GPS 90 became the best-selling aviation handheld by offering pilots
powerful navigation features and tremendous value all in the smallest GPS
package you can buy. Add in a crisp, backlit LCD display, an easy to use
operating system and up to 20 hours of use on just four AA batteries, and
it's no wonder the GPS 90 is the preferred choice of pilots around the
world.
The GPS 90 features a full Jeppesen® database complete with runway
diagrams,
airport frequencies and airport services and altitude sensitive,
sectorized
Class B and C airspace alerts. All on a 2.2 x 1.5 display that offers
superior readability, even in direct sunlight. And it's easily accessible
through a few simple keystrokes. The GPS 90's moving map display keeps
track
of your every move, along with nearby airports, navaids and waypoints.
With
continuous track, bearing, distance and ground speed data on screen, you
can
use the moving map to navigate right to your destination.

But the power of the GPS 90 doesn't stop there. The navigation page
provides
steering guidance to your destination, complete with VNAV, ETE and
crosstrack data. Top it off with a full complement of standard accessories
like a universal yoke mount, power cable and antenna mount, and you've got
the handheld GPS pilots just can't get enough of-the Garmin® GPS 90."

Jerry
--
Jerry Bransford
To email, remove 'me' from my email address
KC6TAY, PP-ASEL
See the Geezer Jeep at
http://members.cox.net/jerrypb/

"Dave Butler" wrote in message
...
Ted Lindgreen wrote:

The 196 is a great GPS, but it has two "features", that, had I
know it before, would have caused me to never have bought it.

1. Lock-to-Road.
The 196 is a combined aviation/automotive/marine GPS.
For road-usage Garmin build in a feature, "Lock-to-Road",
to coverup both map- and GPS errors. As some maps are
pretty bad, and it seems to try to "fix" pre-SA GPS errors,
this can offset your actual position by hundreds of feet.
I have observed my 196 a few times to kick into "Lock-to-Road"
mode when flying above a road. Needless to say that whatever the
instrument then tells you is complete bogus, especially the HSI
is "fun" to watch.....
You will ask: "why the heck don't you disable this??".
The problem is that the 196 automagically enables again it all
the time as side-effect of other settings. There is no way to
set it to off and keep it off (this is confirmed by Garmin).
The only work-around I found sofar is it to religiously check
and reset it every time I at startup and then not touch power,
mode, settings, etc., anymore.

I've not had my 196 for as long as you've had yours, but I've never
observed
this behavior. I'll look for it, though. My observation would have been
that
lock-to-road is in effect in land-mode, but not in aviation mode. I
wonder
whether we have different software versions. I'm on 2.7 (from memory). I
think
3.0 is available but I haven't downloaded it.

Go to http://www.garmin.com and put in "lock to road" in the search
field
and it
lists several software changes that have been made in that feature.


2. Dead-Reckoning.
Whenever the 196 looses the satellites (which does happen
now and then near certain airports and/or with certain radio
settings), it does not tell you. Instead, it covers up this
fact and just extrapolates whatever your course was for no
less than 30 seconds. You can set an alarm on "accuracy",
but also this alarm is delayed by 30 seconds. So, if you
loose the satellites, only after 30 seconds you find out
that the information the 196 was giving you was bogus.


I have seen this behavior. My old Garmin 90 worked the same way. It's
not
a
problem for me.

Remove "SHIRT" to reply directly.

"Roger Long" om wrote in
message ...
I just updated out to that last database that will be released. It's a
free
download from Garmin and a simple job if you have the cord.

When you download, it takes you to the payment page but the price is
$0.00.

Oh NO KIDDING, thanks Roger!! That's great news, thanks for the
information.

Jerry
--
Jerry Bransford
To email, remove 'me' from my email address
KC6TAY, PP-ASEL
See the Geezer Jeep at
http://members.cox.net/jerrypb/


--
Roger Long
Jerry Bransford wrote in message
news:bJabb.4097$gv5.3842@fed1read05...
I have my Garmin GPS 90 with an outdated aviation database for sale...
of
course the airports don't move so as long as it's for VFR flight, it's
fine.
I don't NEED to sell it but if I received a good offer, I would.
Contact
me
at if you are seriously interested. Of course you can
update the database through Garmin.

Garmin says this at http://www.garmin.com/products/gps90/

"The GPS 90 became the best-selling aviation handheld by offering pilots
powerful navigation features and tremendous value all in the smallest
GPS
package you can buy. Add in a crisp, backlit LCD display, an easy to use
operating system and up to 20 hours of use on just four AA batteries,
and
it's no wonder the GPS 90 is the preferred choice of pilots around the
world.
The GPS 90 features a full Jeppesen® database complete with runway
diagrams,
airport frequencies and airport services and altitude sensitive,
sectorized
Class B and C airspace alerts. All on a 2.2 x 1.5 display that offers
superior readability, even in direct sunlight. And it's easily
accessible
through a few simple keystrokes. The GPS 90's moving map display keeps
track
of your every move, along with nearby airports, navaids and waypoints.
With
continuous track, bearing, distance and ground speed data on screen, you
can
use the moving map to navigate right to your destination.

But the power of the GPS 90 doesn't stop there. The navigation page
provides
steering guidance to your destination, complete with VNAV, ETE and
crosstrack data. Top it off with a full complement of standard
accessories
like a universal yoke mount, power cable and antenna mount, and you've
got
the handheld GPS pilots just can't get enough of-the Garmin® GPS 90."

Jerry
--
Jerry Bransford
To email, remove 'me' from my email address
KC6TAY, PP-ASEL
See the Geezer Jeep at
http://members.cox.net/jerrypb/

"Dave Butler" wrote in message
...
Ted Lindgreen wrote:

The 196 is a great GPS, but it has two "features", that, had I
know it before, would have caused me to never have bought it.

1. Lock-to-Road.
The 196 is a combined aviation/automotive/marine GPS.
For road-usage Garmin build in a feature, "Lock-to-Road",
to coverup both map- and GPS errors. As some maps are
pretty bad, and it seems to try to "fix" pre-SA GPS errors,
this can offset your actual position by hundreds of feet.
I have observed my 196 a few times to kick into "Lock-to-Road"
mode when flying above a road. Needless to say that whatever the
instrument then tells you is complete bogus, especially the HSI
is "fun" to watch.....
You will ask: "why the heck don't you disable this??".
The problem is that the 196 automagically enables again it all
the time as side-effect of other settings. There is no way to
set it to off and keep it off (this is confirmed by Garmin).
The only work-around I found sofar is it to religiously check
and reset it every time I at startup and then not touch power,
mode, settings, etc., anymore.

I've not had my 196 for as long as you've had yours, but I've never
observed
this behavior. I'll look for it, though. My observation would have
been
that
lock-to-road is in effect in land-mode, but not in aviation mode. I
wonder
whether we have different software versions. I'm on 2.7 (from memory).
I
think
3.0 is available but I haven't downloaded it.

Go to http://www.garmin.com and put in "lock to road" in the search
field
and it
lists several software changes that have been made in that feature.


2. Dead-Reckoning.
Whenever the 196 looses the satellites (which does happen
now and then near certain airports and/or with certain radio
settings), it does not tell you. Instead, it covers up this
fact and just extrapolates whatever your course was for no
less than 30 seconds. You can set an alarm on "accuracy",
but also this alarm is delayed by 30 seconds. So, if you
loose the satellites, only after 30 seconds you find out
that the information the 196 was giving you was bogus.


I have seen this behavior. My old Garmin 90 worked the same way. It's
not
a
problem for me.

Remove "SHIRT" to reply directly.

According this eBay search:
http://search-completed.ebay.com/sea...ompletedonly=1

4 Garmin 90s sold for $100, 138.50, 142.25, and 151.00.

So I'd say between a $100 and 150 bucks...plus shipping

Mitch


"Jerry Bransford" wrote in message news:bJabb.4097$gv5.3842@fed1read05...
I have my Garmin GPS 90 with an outdated aviation database for sale... of
course the airports don't move so as long as it's for VFR flight, it's fine.
I don't NEED to sell it but if I received a good offer, I would. Contact me
at if you are seriously interested. Of course you can
update the database through Garmin.