The rudder waggle signal does not work

A few thoughts.

Assuming any human has the potential to panic and become dumb during a
stressful situation, why don't we do what the airlines do? They
practice the emergency over and over until it is muscle memory and
becomes an "abnormal", not an emergency. How? Personally I think
Condor flight simulator can help a lot. After not soaring for a week,
I always use Condor to aerotow with strong crosswinds from various
direction. With full water it is very difficult. I release when I
get in trouble on the ground, and I talk to myself out loud. "No
remaining runway, field to the right, right 180 etc." I do all the
checklists out loud. Condor does a wing rock for release, so that
burned in pretty well. A sim set up with random failures helped me
with my multi rating. After the sim, I was always waiting for that
failure anticipating and expecting it to happen. I wish Condor could
be programmed for failures to help with safety like other home sims
can.

On the radio thing, I find it fairly hard to hear radios in gliders,
and I miss calls too often. Power planes with headsets are
wonderful. I'm considering some kind of headset that works for
soaring. (suggestions appreciated)

Many of us look at accidents and think "I would never do that", but
that's dangerous thinking. You have to train for the time when Mr.
Panic is at the helm. Aaron

Time to get real and standardize what we are doing in the aviation
community.
Radios. Person to person communication. Not perfect but a heck of a
lot better than some pilot trying to decide what the tow plane is
doing.
Radios. Transponders. Flarm if you want to add one more layer but
NOT a substitution for a transponder.
That is my take.
Flying is expensive. Get over it. Buy the equipment. Batteries are
no longer an excuse.
We are not hang gliders jumping off some cliff.
We are sharing a crowded and complex airspace and airport with all
kinds of traffic.

On Jul 24, 11:16*pm, guy wrote:
Time to get real and standardize what we are doing in the aviation
community.
Radios. *Person to person communication. *Not perfect but a heck of a
lot better than some pilot trying to decide what the tow plane is
doing.
Radios. *Transponders. *Flarm if you want to add one more layer but
NOT a substitution for a transponder.
That is my take.
Flying is expensive. *Get over it. *Buy the equipment. *Batteries are
no longer an excuse.
We are not hang gliders jumping off some cliff.
We are sharing a crowded and complex airspace and airport with all
kinds of traffic.

Guy...

Last time I looked they were called "Standard American Soaring
Signals"

I can think of nothing more standard.......I was taught the "check
spoiler signal"....I teach the "check spoiler signal"

Every tow pilot I ever dealt with knows the check spoiler
signal......I teach every one of my students the check spoiler
signal.....This weekend I went to two gliderports and asked every
pilot and every tow pilot either what does the rudder waggle during
tow mean, or what is the signal for check spoiler?......every single
guy got it right.....This IS THE standard....

There is nothing more standard than this signal!!!

Now let's add the fact that this is one of the "your life may depend
on this signal" signals....It becomes even easier to remember....

Now tell me how you're gonna standardize radio? Who's going to
inspect each installation and how often? Who's going to insure fully
charged batteries? Who is going to insure proper volume setting, and
squelch setting? (in both aircraft?)

Tell me exactly what would be the "standard" phraseology for each
possible emergency scenario?

Tell me exaclty, How do I know which tow plane pilot is talking to
which glider pilot ? (many operations have several tow going on at
the same time....

I can imagine hearing over the radio....."release, release, release!"
and having 4 glider release at the same time and all try to land back
at the field!

Or maybe this scenario....

Glider, ASW 20, (I think) N 234 BC) or is it 345?......anyway....the
glider being towed by the red pawnee....you know N
789F......Yeah...you......anyway....I do have an important safety
message for you....

OK this is glider BC.....Towplane go ahead....

Roger this is towplane....You are about to die! Over....



Cookie

On Jul 25, 4:58*am, "
wrote:
On Jul 24, 11:16*pm, guy wrote:

Time to get real and standardize what we are doing in the aviation
community.
Radios. *Person to person communication. *Not perfect but a heck of a
lot better than some pilot trying to decide what the tow plane is
doing.
Radios. *Transponders. *Flarm if you want to add one more layer but
NOT a substitution for a transponder.
That is my take.
Flying is expensive. *Get over it. *Buy the equipment. *Batteries are
no longer an excuse.
We are not hang gliders jumping off some cliff.
We are sharing a crowded and complex airspace and airport with all
kinds of traffic.

Guy...

Last time I looked they were called "Standard American Soaring
Signals"

I can think of nothing more standard.......I was taught the "check
spoiler signal"....I teach the "check spoiler signal"

Every tow pilot I ever dealt with knows the check spoiler
signal......I teach every one of my students the check spoiler
signal.....This weekend I went to two gliderports and asked every
pilot and every tow pilot either what does the rudder waggle during
tow mean, or what is the signal for check spoiler?......every single
guy got it right.....This IS THE standard....

There is nothing more standard than this signal!!!

Now let's add the fact that this is one of the "your life may depend
on this signal" signals....It becomes even easier to remember....

Now tell me how you're gonna standardize radio? * Who's going to
inspect each installation and how often? *Who's going to insure fully
charged batteries? *Who is going to insure proper volume setting, and
squelch setting? *(in both aircraft?)

*Tell me exactly what would be the "standard" phraseology for each
possible emergency scenario?

Tell me exaclty, How do I know which tow plane pilot is talking to
which glider pilot ? *(many operations have several tow going on at
the same time....

I can imagine hearing over the radio....."release, release, release!"
and having 4 glider release at the same time and all try to land back
at the field!

Or maybe this scenario....

Glider, ASW 20, (I think) *N 234 BC) or is it 345?......anyway....the
glider being towed by the red pawnee....you know N
789F......Yeah...you......anyway....I do have an important safety
message for you....

OK this is glider BC.....Towplane go ahead....

Roger this is towplane....You are about to die! * Over....

Cookie

How about "Glider on tow, your spoilers are open!"

Hard to screw that up! Even if there were 4 gliders on tow, all of
them checking their spoilers would be a good thing, right?

On Jul 25, 4:58*am, "
wrote:
On Jul 24, 11:16*pm, guy wrote:

Time to get real and standardize what we are doing in the aviation
community.
Radios. *Person to person communication. *Not perfect but a heck of a
lot better than some pilot trying to decide what the tow plane is
doing.
Radios. *Transponders. *Flarm if you want to add one more layer but
NOT a substitution for a transponder.
That is my take.
Flying is expensive. *Get over it. *Buy the equipment. *Batteries are
no longer an excuse.
We are not hang gliders jumping off some cliff.
We are sharing a crowded and complex airspace and airport with all
kinds of traffic.

Guy...

Last time I looked they were called "Standard American Soaring
Signals"

I can think of nothing more standard.......I was taught the "check
spoiler signal"....I teach the "check spoiler signal"

Every tow pilot I ever dealt with knows the check spoiler
signal......I teach every one of my students the check spoiler
signal.....This weekend I went to two gliderports and asked every
pilot and every tow pilot either what does the rudder waggle during
tow mean, or what is the signal for check spoiler?......every single
guy got it right.....This IS THE standard....

There is nothing more standard than this signal!!!

Now let's add the fact that this is one of the "your life may depend
on this signal" signals....It becomes even easier to remember....

Now tell me how you're gonna standardize radio? * Who's going to
inspect each installation and how often? *Who's going to insure fully
charged batteries? *Who is going to insure proper volume setting, and
squelch setting? *(in both aircraft?)

*Tell me exactly what would be the "standard" phraseology for each
possible emergency scenario?

Tell me exaclty, How do I know which tow plane pilot is talking to
which glider pilot ? *(many operations have several tow going on at
the same time....

I can imagine hearing over the radio....."release, release, release!"
and having 4 glider release at the same time and all try to land back
at the field!

Or maybe this scenario....

Glider, ASW 20, (I think) *N 234 BC) or is it 345?......anyway....the
glider being towed by the red pawnee....you know N
789F......Yeah...you......anyway....I do have an important safety
message for you....

OK this is glider BC.....Towplane go ahead....

Roger this is towplane....You are about to die! * Over....

Cookie

Cookie, I just hope you teach your tow pilots to climb to a safe
altitude if possible before giving a rudder wag . If not, please let
us know where you tow so we can avoid towing there.

Ramy

Hi,

Let me just just add couple of thoughts regarding radio usage
and experiences with it in different part of the world.

I live and fly in Poland where radio is installed in most probably
every single glider and towplane. That's not a strict law requirement,
you can fly in class G airspace without one but every flight club
I know or heard of requires it with a strict "no radio - no fly"
policy.

Batteries "management" (for club gliders):
- charged overnight, every pilot has to connect the one he
used to the charger at the end of a day,
- in the morning, you take a battery and check its voltage (under
resistance),
- mandatory radio check during pre-flight inspection.

There is no standard phraseology only common practices:
- towplanes use shortened call signs, one-two letters at most,
e.g. "sierra faster!" (glider to towplane),
- gliders use their competition numbers as call signs,
- only student pilots wait for wing-rock signal to release,
- pilots release when they feel it's apriopriate and signal via radio
e.g. "papa november released",
- usually it's stated what's the minimum release height.

On a good day in my club there are usually 2 towplanes and
2 winches in use
During a competition there can be 8 towplanes in use and
radio communication is reduced to emergency+start signals only.

Regarding open spoilers, there's always a person on the ground
coordinating tows, landings, etc. and every start is observed
so he can signal glider to close spoilers via radio.
Of course if spoilers open later it's up to a towplane to signal it.
Also more performant gliders with water balast keep spoilers open a
little
for first several seconds to stabilize wings and reduce risk of a wing
drop.
So it's guaranteded a pilot has his hand on a spoiler handle in this
case.

Just to summarize, in my opinio radios increase safety a lot.
But of course they're not a remedy to safety problems.

Regards,
Wiktor


On 25 Lip, 13:58, "
wrote:
[..]
Now tell me how you're gonna standardize radio? * Who's going to
inspect each installation and how often? *Who's going to insure fully
charged batteries? *Who is going to insure proper volume setting, and
squelch setting? *(in both aircraft?)

*Tell me exactly what would be the "standard" phraseology for each
possible emergency scenario?

Tell me exaclty, How do I know which tow plane pilot is talking to
which glider pilot ? *(many operations have several tow going on at
the same time....

I can imagine hearing over the radio....."release, release, release!"
and having 4 glider release at the same time and all try to land back
at the field!

Or maybe this scenario....

Glider, ASW 20, (I think) *N 234 BC) or is it 345?......anyway....the
glider being towed by the red pawnee....you know N
789F......Yeah...you......anyway....I do have an important safety
message for you....

OK this is glider BC.....Towplane go ahead....

Roger this is towplane....You are about to die! * Over....

Cookie

On Jul 22, 7:55*am, Pat Russell wrote:
The towplane rudder waggle signal has done more harm than good. *We
have spent at least ten years trying to educate our pilots about this
signal, and we have failed. *It is time we got rid of the signal.

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/br...15X11650&key=1

-Pat

This accident is very tragic, no doubt.

Rudder Waggle,

how do you know it has not done more good than harm? the good that has
come from the rudder waggle signal is not documented in NTSB reports.
Without a signal what is the towpilot to do when the brakes are out on
the glider and the combo is not climbing? release the glider? if that
is the case we might as well keep the signal. If the glider releases
there is no difference but if they remember the signal disaster may be
diverted.

Did they not have radios? Over the years I have collected many
stories of accidents that almost happened and at some point during the
story I have to add, "Oh, and back then we did not have radios."
Every glider should have a radio and a PPT on the stick!

Boggs


how do you know it has not done more good than harm? the good that has
come from the rudder waggle signal is not documented in NTSB reports.
Without a signal what is the towpilot to do when the brakes are out on
the glider and the combo is not climbing? release the glider? if that
is the case we might as well keep the signal. *If the glider releases
there is no difference but if they remember the signal disaster may be
diverted.

I like radios. However, the one time I really needed it due to a
release failure, the tow pilot did not respond (tow plane from another
club and maybe no radio or different frequency, my bad I should have
checked before taking the tow) to radio calls. Nor did he respond to
my flying out to the side and rocking wings.

http://washingtonexaminer.com/opinio...lider-warnings

I'm just curious about the nine fatalities mentioned due to
'commercial' and glider collisions. Anyone have a list?

Frank Whiteley

On Jul 22, 8:18*am, GARY BOGGS wrote:
Did they not have radios? *Over the years I have collected many
stories of accidents that almost happened and at some point during the
story I have to add, "Oh, and back then we did not have radios."
Every glider should have a radio and a PPT on the stick!

Boggs









how do you know it has not done more good than harm? the good that has
come from the rudder waggle signal is not documented in NTSB reports.
Without a signal what is the towpilot to do when the brakes are out on
the glider and the combo is not climbing? release the glider? if that
is the case we might as well keep the signal. *If the glider releases
there is no difference but if they remember the signal disaster may be
diverted.

On Jul 22, 8:38*am, Frank Whiteley wrote:
I like radios. *However, the one time I really needed it due to a
release failure, the tow pilot did not respond (tow plane from another
club and maybe no radio or different frequency, my bad I should have
checked before taking the tow) to radio calls. *Nor did he respond to
my flying out to the side and rocking wings.

http://washingtonexaminer.com/opinio...should-tell-fa...

I'm just curious about the nine fatalities mentioned due to
'commercial' and glider collisions. *Anyone have a list?

Frank Whiteley

On Jul 22, 8:18*am, GARY BOGGS wrote:







Did they not have radios? *Over the years I have collected many
stories of accidents that almost happened and at some point during the
story I have to add, "Oh, and back then we did not have radios."
Every glider should have a radio and a PPT on the stick!

Boggs

how do you know it has not done more good than harm? the good that has
come from the rudder waggle signal is not documented in NTSB reports.
Without a signal what is the towpilot to do when the brakes are out on
the glider and the combo is not climbing? release the glider? if that
is the case we might as well keep the signal. *If the glider releases
there is no difference but if they remember the signal disaster may be
diverted.

IIRC, the rudder wag signal was was introduced because radio proved
unreliable in critical situations! IMHO, if tow pilots can be taught
the right signals, so can glider pilots. Time to tighten up on FAR
Section 61.56 flight reviews.