Talk me out of this...

I am no expert but i belive the 0-235 in a 152 is a 2,400 TBO


"BTIZ" wrote in message
news:YBkVb.10199$IF1.4786@fed1read01...
2050 SMOH on an 8000hr "training airplane:...

IIRC.. most C-152 engines hit TBO at 2000, so this engine is run out
already.. should not be any hours left in it..

BT

"Paul Folbrecht" wrote in message
hlink.net...
Me: 7x hour recently licenced PP-SEL.

Plane: '79 C152 being sold by my FBO for $19,200. TT is around 8000 (I
think), SMOH is 2050. Annual just done. This looks like an Ok deal to
me when comparing to like models, but the clincher is that they are
throwing in one year of hangering as well. That makes it look like a
pretty nice deal.

Ideally I'd like to go into this with a partner but I haven't been able
to find one and I do honestly think they'll unload this aircraft before
too long. Not sure if the price or terms are negotiable but I would
like to try to squeeze a second year of hangaring out of them.

Concerns:

- Engine has only a few hundred hours till TBO. I know that means
dropping another $10K or so within a few years.
- Plane has been abused by students (including me) for 25 years now (the
FBO bought it new).
- The only A&Ps I know that I could have take a look at it work for this
FBO.

Pros:

- The plane flies a lot; I know that's good for the engine.
- The FBO is reputable and I know they do their maintenance and take
care of squawks.

I'm torn in general on renting vs. owning right now. I anticipate
flying about 100 hours/year- by my calculations that's right around the
break-even point. However, knowing you're always going to have an
aircraft available to fly, even on short notice, is something you can't
put a direct dollar figure on.

I know this issue in general has been beat to death more than anything
else here, and I've read a lot of the old threads, but any and all
comments welcome. I'm much newer at all this than most of you here.

~Paul

In article k.net,
Paul Folbrecht wrote:

Plane: '79 C152 being sold by my FBO for $19,200. TT is around 8000 (I
think), SMOH is 2050.

You've got to figure the overhaul cost in. It's half again the cost of
the plane, at least! Call around, get estimates. The cheaper the airframe
the higher the relative value of the avionics and the engine, so get it
right.

But more importantly: Step one (as several have alluded to) is to figure
out what your mission is. THEN pick a plane that fits your mission. The
152 has a pretty limited mission.

--
Ben Jackson

http://www.ben.com/

You're kidding, right? Okay, instead of the normal candy coated
responses, here's your slap on the back of the head.

On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 02:41:04 GMT, Paul Folbrecht
wrote:

Me: 7x hour recently licenced PP-SEL.

Plane: '79 C152 being sold by my FBO for $19,200. TT is around 8000 (I
think), SMOH is 2050. Annual just done. This looks like an Ok deal to
me when comparing to like models, but the clincher is that they are
throwing in one year of hangering as well. That makes it look like a
pretty nice deal.

That' their job. They need to unload a tired old piece of junk that's
already been amortized by their accountant long ago!

Ideally I'd like to go into this with a partner but I haven't been able
to find one and I do honestly think they'll unload this aircraft before
too long. Not sure if the price or terms are negotiable but I would
like to try to squeeze a second year of hangaring out of them.

That's because someone else may want to buy with their head!

Concerns:

- Engine has only a few hundred hours till TBO. I know that means
dropping another $10K or so within a few years.

10K? Do you want a junk yard engine or do you want an engine you'll
be comfortable on takeoff with? $10K MAY get you a field overhaul if
everything else is in good shape. If the engine is original, it has
8000 hours on it. Don't let anyone bull**** you on this. How are the
cylinders? How is the crank and cam? What about the induction system
and mags? Starter and alternator? Don't fall for that 10K rebuild
crap. It's for cheapskates that don't give a rat's ass about their
own safety.

- Plane has been abused by students (including me) for 25 years now (the
FBO bought it new).
- The only A&Ps I know that I could have take a look at it work for this
FBO.

Strike 2 and strike 3. Sounds like you're aware of what you're
getting into.

Pros:

- The plane flies a lot; I know that's good for the engine.

To a certain point. The plane is being used as a trainer and the
engine is being abused as part of normal training. And the engine is
only a third of the airplane. What about all the rest of the
twisting, yanking, pulling, banging and slamming on the airframe
itself?

- The FBO is reputable and I know they do their maintenance and take
care of squawks.

They could very well be, but I'll bet you don't get into their
finances and don't see the real picture. Nobody except a private
owner will take care of a plane as well as a private owner. Besides,
what's a replacement airplane going to cost them?

I'm torn in general on renting vs. owning right now. I anticipate
flying about 100 hours/year- by my calculations that's right around the
break-even point. However, knowing you're always going to have an
aircraft available to fly, even on short notice, is something you can't
put a direct dollar figure on.

What you never see are the pop ups that occur when owning. All those
items that you'll authorized to be fixed when you're the main guy.
And, have you figured who you're going to use as a mechanic? As long
as you keep the present one on, you'll never be his number one
concern. If you can't do the work yourself, a simple tire change will
cost you over $400. An oil change can easily cost $250. Need a prop?
Fork over another $2K!

I know this issue in general has been beat to death more than anything
else here, and I've read a lot of the old threads, but any and all
comments welcome. I'm much newer at all this than most of you here.

~Paul

Paul, unless you have $35K to **** away, I'd start doing some
research. First and foremost is your mission. If it's Saturday
burgers for the next bunch of years, the 152 is okay. If it's flying
over to grandma's, you're SOL. What you need to do is start looking
at the big picture which includes, resale (you'll want to upgrade in
about a year, guaranteed!), replacement parts availability, AD's,
SB's, insurance costs, hangar, annual costs, equipment, accessories,
etc. As others have stated, when you get the engine taken care of,
you'll have an 8000 hour $35,000 152, and you haven't even mentioned
avionics which could cost you $5000 in a blink of an eye!

My thoughts:
1. Too many hours for any plane. When you're done with it, you'll
need to part it out to recoup any of your investment
2. A trainer all its life is a very, very bad thing.
3. Avionics?
4. You need to get this for $10K or have them supply an overhauled
engine for the $19K to even consider the deal.
5. Run, don't walk from this one.
6. Trade A Plane. See what the world is really like in this
"recovering" economy. $35K buys a whole lot of airplane, including
good 172's if you're a high wing guy. If you're a low winger, the
Cherokees may be more bang for your buck, and more in your price
desires. If you can't come up with the cash, finance. You'll be
doing it anyway, but on your credit card after the bills start coming
in.
7. If you're ready to buy, you'll walk away from dozens before you
find the one you want.
8. Unless you fly regularly (200 hours a year) you'll never
cost-justify the purchase vs. renting, so take that out of the
equation.

Paul, buying a run-out, warhorse, 2-seat trainer doesn't sound like
something anyone here can recommend.

I went through a similar experience back in '98, only less so. I bought a
4-seat, 150 hp Warrior which we dearly loved, but my kids rapidly outgrew
its useful load. It was also a high-hour trainer, and we ended up fixing
virtually everything on that plane, from stem to stern, at great expense.

We sold it in early '02, and bought a 235 hp Pathfinder. Useful load
solved, lesson learned. Shoulda bought the Pathfinder (or similar) FIRST,
and I would have saved myself at LEAST $10K in the long run.

A 152 is an even worse prospect in this regard. IF it was IFR certified,
and IF you were only using it to build hours toward your commercial, or
something similar, it MIGHT make sense.

If, however, you are like the majority of us here (flying for personal and
business travel), a 152 is not going to do the job. You will end up trying
to sell it in a couple of years, after putting a new engine in it. You will
NOT get your money back.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

I, too, was looking at 150/152 planes for quite awhile. I *knew* that my
mission would be limited since at 220 lbs, I knew that if I added *any*one,
I'd have only about an hour's worth of fuel.

Then, it finally hit me... I asked the same question of everyone who was
selling a 150/152: "Why are you selling it?" Every non-FBO replied: "I
should have gotten a 4-seater."

Read the writing on the wall...
Carl

"Paul Folbrecht" wrote in message
hlink.net...
Me: 7x hour recently licenced PP-SEL.

Plane: '79 C152 being sold by my FBO for $19,200. TT is around 8000 (I
think), SMOH is 2050. Annual just done. This looks like an Ok deal to
me when comparing to like models, but the clincher is that they are
throwing in one year of hangering as well. That makes it look like a
pretty nice deal.

Ideally I'd like to go into this with a partner but I haven't been able
to find one and I do honestly think they'll unload this aircraft before
too long. Not sure if the price or terms are negotiable but I would
like to try to squeeze a second year of hangaring out of them.

Concerns:

- Engine has only a few hundred hours till TBO. I know that means
dropping another $10K or so within a few years.
- Plane has been abused by students (including me) for 25 years now (the
FBO bought it new).
- The only A&Ps I know that I could have take a look at it work for this
FBO.

Pros:

- The plane flies a lot; I know that's good for the engine.
- The FBO is reputable and I know they do their maintenance and take
care of squawks.

I'm torn in general on renting vs. owning right now. I anticipate
flying about 100 hours/year- by my calculations that's right around the
break-even point. However, knowing you're always going to have an
aircraft available to fly, even on short notice, is something you can't
put a direct dollar figure on.

I know this issue in general has been beat to death more than anything
else here, and I've read a lot of the old threads, but any and all
comments welcome. I'm much newer at all this than most of you here.

~Paul

Join a flying club.

Paul,
I don't know where you live but after a quick search on
aerotraderonline.com I found many planes in the price range that you
mentioned.
Here is one example of many:
1980 CESSNA 152 II, 4135 TT, 130 SMOH , Very Clean, Low Time,
$28,000, 1998 Paint, 2001 Int. Inspection Status: March 2003 Annual.

And there's even better deals than that if you look.
Try Trade-A-Plane or ASO.com

David (KORL)

"Paul Folbrecht" wrote in message
hlink.net...
Me: 7x hour recently licenced PP-SEL.

Plane: '79 C152 being sold by my FBO for $19,200. TT is around 8000 (I
think), SMOH is 2050. Annual just done. This looks like an Ok deal to
me when comparing to like models, but the clincher is that they are
throwing in one year of hangering as well. That makes it look like a
pretty nice deal.


Paul: I bought a 1966 C150 last year for $18,500.
4275 TT 300 SMOH Paint and interior comletly redone in 1975 and flown by
one owner since.The 150
certainly has limited space and limited range but it is
plenty for my wife and I.We are both in our 70's so we
don't worry about space for the kids.

I just wanted to give you an idea of what you can find if you really
look.I think you are going to spend big bucks
just to keep this one going. I love my 150 but I wouldn't
pay that kind of money for a run out one.

Best of luck
Bob Barker N8749S

Get an independent A&P to do a compression check on this engine.
Usually, if the engine doesn't use oil and is making good
compressions, it will go another 500 hours, regardless of how many
hours is on it. Also, see if you can find out the history of rebuilds
on this engine. How long has it been since it had a MAJOR, that is new
crank bearings and new camshaft. If it has a fairly new crank and
camshaft, when it does need work, you may be able to get away with
just a top overhaul. If it has been 4000 hours or more since bottom,
you will need a complete rebuild.

Yes the engine is near TBO, but one thing, if you can run past TBO,
the engine hours are "free" as it has already been depreciated.

Plane prices are very soft right now, you should be able to deal down
a bit.

A 152 is a great little airplane. Have you checked out a Cessna 140?
Taildraggers are a lot of fun and always a challenge to fly.

Paul Folbrecht wrote in message thlink.net...
Me: 7x hour recently licenced PP-SEL.

Plane: '79 C152 being sold by my FBO for $19,200. TT is around 8000 (I
think), SMOH is 2050. Annual just done. This looks like an Ok deal to
me when comparing to like models, but the clincher is that they are
throwing in one year of hangering as well. That makes it look like a
pretty nice deal.

Ideally I'd like to go into this with a partner but I haven't been able
to find one and I do honestly think they'll unload this aircraft before
too long. Not sure if the price or terms are negotiable but I would
like to try to squeeze a second year of hangaring out of them.

Concerns:

- Engine has only a few hundred hours till TBO. I know that means
dropping another $10K or so within a few years.
- Plane has been abused by students (including me) for 25 years now (the
FBO bought it new).
- The only A&Ps I know that I could have take a look at it work for this
FBO.

Pros:

- The plane flies a lot; I know that's good for the engine.
- The FBO is reputable and I know they do their maintenance and take
care of squawks.

I'm torn in general on renting vs. owning right now. I anticipate
flying about 100 hours/year- by my calculations that's right around the
break-even point. However, knowing you're always going to have an
aircraft available to fly, even on short notice, is something you can't
put a direct dollar figure on.

I know this issue in general has been beat to death more than anything
else here, and I've read a lot of the old threads, but any and all
comments welcome. I'm much newer at all this than most of you here.

~Paul

Dave wrote:

Did I read that right?

Apparently not.

A 'slow' 2-place plane with a new engine for $30K

He said about 2/3 of that.

George Patterson
Love, n.: A form of temporary insanity afflicting the young. It is curable
either by marriage or by removal of the afflicted from the circumstances
under which he incurred the condition. It is sometimes fatal, but more
often to the physician than to the patient.