Low pass

Final comment on low passes, then I'll shut up: *How many documented
accidents, in the US, can be directly blamed on low passes in recent
years (say, since the end of their use in contest finishes)? *OTOH,

Kirk
66

Kirt, I can remember 2 right off the top of my head, not counting the
recent one in Idaho.
Uvalde '86 and Cal City ? date.
Type in "finish line accidents" or "low pass accidents" in "search
this group" above and you'll get an afternoons worth of reading.
BTW, the 50 foot line finish is still in the US Rules.
Cheers,
JJ

Bravo Kirk......

Well put......in your two post. Some simply don't get it or haven't
found it. As to Cupcake.....maybe he's not cut out for low passes or
they frighten him and hasn't come to terms with it.
He sees it as a 'show off maneuver' while we fly it to enjoy a part of
the performance envelope not always available. I bet he has never done
one followed by practicing a low altitude save climbing back to
altitude. Every serious racer has climbed out of a 400-500' hole.
I practice this manuever often, but I have the benefit of operating
out of a private strip.
Bottom line.....enjoy the magic....enjoy all that the sport has to
offer.

R

On 8/26/2011 3:42 PM, hretting wrote:
Bravo Kirk......

Well put......in your two post. Some simply don't get it or haven't
found it. As to Cupcake.....maybe he's not cut out for low passes or
they frighten him and hasn't come to terms with it.
He sees it as a 'show off maneuver' while we fly it to enjoy a part of
the performance envelope not always available. I bet he has never done
one followed by practicing a low altitude save climbing back to
altitude. Every serious racer has climbed out of a 400-500' hole.
I practice this manuever often, but I have the benefit of operating
out of a private strip.
Bottom line.....enjoy the magic....enjoy all that the sport has to
offer.

R
There's a big difference between doing these kinds of maneuvers at a
private strip where you aren't going to kill anyone but yourself, vs.
doing them at a public airport where there's lots of other traffic you
may or not know about who aren't particularly appreciative of having
someone hotdogging in the pattern.

--
Mike Schumann

On Aug 26, 10:47*am, John Cochrane
wrote:
Final comment on low passes, then I'll shut up: *How many documented
accidents, in the US, can be directly blamed on low passes in recent
years (say, since the end of their use in contest finishes)? *OTOH,
how many due to botched PTTs, taking off with spoilers open, midairs,
landouts, stall spins on final, botched final glides,etc?

Well, quite a few, actually. Here is the last time I put together the
numbers (see slide 5)

http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/john...pts/contest_sa...

Uvalde and wurstboro in 2001 were the most recent, both fatal, both
following a low pass.

The much larger danger has been "low energy at the finish" which is
easy to confuse with "screwing up a high speed low pass." The accident
reports are littered with gliders 1-2 miles from the finish line that
didn't quite make it. The excellent UK accident reports on Sailplane
and Gliding continue with a few of these every year. The accident
reports (see above) are also full of pilots arriving at 50 feet and 50
knots with few ideas and then crashing on the airport.

The accident that started all this sounds now less like "show off low
pass" and more like one of these, "very low energy pattern." Reports
were a very low slow downwind fololwed by stall spin on base and
final. Perhaps the discussion should move to "you don't have to do a
big square pattern every time."

John Cochrane

Went through your power point, well thought out. Lots of good lessons
to learn.

gary kemp

On 8/26/2011 11:47 AM, John Cochrane wrote:

Final comment on low passes, then I'll shut up: How many documented
accidents, in the US, can be directly blamed on low passes in recent
years (say, since the end of their use in contest finishes)? OTOH,
how many due to botched PTTs, taking off with spoilers open, midairs,
landouts, stall spins on final, botched final glides,etc?

Well, quite a few, actually. Here is the last time I put together the
numbers (see slide 5)

http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/john...est_safety.ppt

Uvalde and Wurtsboro in 2001 were the most recent, both fatal, both
following a low pass.

The much larger danger has been "low energy at the finish" which is
easy to confuse with "screwing up a high speed low pass." The accident
reports are littered with gliders 1-2 miles from the finish line that
didn't quite make it. The excellent UK accident reports on Sailplane
and Gliding continue with a few of these every year. The accident
reports (see above) are also full of pilots arriving at 50 feet and 50
knots with few ideas and then crashing on the airport.

Great Stuff, John..even withOUT the benefit of presentational commentary.
Thanks for posting the link!

Working strictly from memory, most of the crunches John mentions were noted in
some way or other in "Soaring" magazine down the years. Heckuva resource for
readers willing to pay attention to the details...


The accident that started all this sounds now less like "show off low
pass" and more like one of these, "very low energy pattern." Reports
were a very low slow downwind followed by stall spin on base and
final. Perhaps the discussion should move to "you don't have to do a
big square pattern every time."

Here's a start...

http://www.ssa.org/magazine/archive/...nth=11&page=36

Link may not work for non-SSA members.

Regards,
Bob W.

On Aug 27, 9:15*am, Mike Schumann
wrote:
There's a big difference between doing these kinds of maneuvers at a
private strip where you aren't going to kill anyone but yourself, vs.
doing them at a public airport where there's lots of other traffic you
may or not know about who aren't particularly appreciative of having
someone hotdogging in the pattern.

Missed approaches are a standard thing that is practiced by power
pilots all the time. It is true that glider low passes are a bit
faster followed by a steeper climb than Cessna missed approaches, but
they're a very similar speed and climb angle to 737 ones.

So It all just depends on how mixed your traffic is.

I learned to fly Tomahawks at Wellington International (110,000
movements/year), where most of the traffic was in fact 737's,
WhisperJets, A320s plus the odd 747SP/767/777 depending on exactly
which year you're talking about. But there aren't gliders there.

At our actual glider field there is a lot of light aircraft and
helicopter training, plus small turboprops (e.g. Cessna Caravan), plus
a Q300 ("Dash 8") service starting in October.

If you're flying somewhere that's only got single-engine 1950's spam
cans from Wichita or Vero Beach flying around fat dumb and happy then,
yeah, gliders could exceed their expectations.

On 8/26/2011 8:01 PM, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Aug 27, 9:15 am, Mike
wrote:
There's a big difference between doing these kinds of maneuvers at a
private strip where you aren't going to kill anyone but yourself, vs.
doing them at a public airport where there's lots of other traffic you
may or not know about who aren't particularly appreciative of having
someone hotdogging in the pattern.

Missed approaches are a standard thing that is practiced by power
pilots all the time. It is true that glider low passes are a bit
faster followed by a steeper climb than Cessna missed approaches, but
they're a very similar speed and climb angle to 737 ones.

So It all just depends on how mixed your traffic is.

I learned to fly Tomahawks at Wellington International (110,000
movements/year), where most of the traffic was in fact 737's,
WhisperJets, A320s plus the odd 747SP/767/777 depending on exactly
which year you're talking about. But there aren't gliders there.

At our actual glider field there is a lot of light aircraft and
helicopter training, plus small turboprops (e.g. Cessna Caravan), plus
a Q300 ("Dash 8") service starting in October.

If you're flying somewhere that's only got single-engine 1950's spam
cans from Wichita or Vero Beach flying around fat dumb and happy then,
yeah, gliders could exceed their expectations.
There's a big difference between a missed approach in a power airplane
and a low pass in a glider. A power plane has the option to change
course and/or extend the pattern if unexpected traffic shows up. A
glider doesn't have a lot of options.

I don't care what airport you are flying out of. You never know when
someone unexpected comes out of no where, clueless about the existence
of gliders and their limitations. This was drilled home to me a number
of years ago when I was turning on to base at a remote airfield (after
announcing our pattern on the radio), only to discover a helicopter
hoovering 5' above the ground just off the arrival end of the runway.
We barely avoided a collision. It turns out the helicopter pilot and
his instructor where so engrossed in their BFR they were oblivious that
anyone else was in the pattern, particularly a glider that didn't have
the option to do a go around.

--
Mike Schumann

On Aug 26, 6:01*pm, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Aug 27, 9:15*am, Mike Schumann
wrote:

There's a big difference between doing these kinds of maneuvers at a
private strip where you aren't going to kill anyone but yourself, vs.
doing them at a public airport where there's lots of other traffic you
may or not know about who aren't particularly appreciative of having
someone hotdogging in the pattern.

Missed approaches are a standard thing that is practiced by power
pilots all the time. It is true that glider low passes are a bit
faster followed by a steeper climb than Cessna missed approaches, but
they're a very similar speed and climb angle to 737 ones.

So It all just depends on how mixed your traffic is.

I learned to fly Tomahawks at Wellington International (110,000
movements/year), where most of the traffic was in fact 737's,
WhisperJets, A320s plus the odd 747SP/767/777 depending on exactly
which year you're talking about. But there aren't gliders there.

At our actual glider field there is a lot of light aircraft and
helicopter training, plus small turboprops (e.g. Cessna Caravan), plus
a Q300 ("Dash 8") service starting in October.

If you're flying somewhere that's only got single-engine 1950's spam
cans from Wichita or Vero Beach flying around fat dumb and happy then,
yeah, gliders could exceed their expectations.

Bruce,
Would you do a low pass if you knew there was an FAA inspector on the
field? Then try your "missed approach" tale on him?
JJ

John - While I agree with many of your points...
BOTH of the accidents you mentioned above we
- outside of competition
- by non competition pilots
- by pilots "emulating the big guys"
Points to training, not banning passes...
Thanks,
Best Regards, Dave

PS: Not a new problem. Discussed in my 1987 article:
http://www.nadler.com/public/Nadler_...g_May_1987.pdf

On Aug 27, 3:12*pm, Mike Schumann
wrote:
On 8/26/2011 8:01 PM, Bruce Hoult wrote:



On Aug 27, 9:15 am, Mike
wrote:
There's a big difference between doing these kinds of maneuvers at a
private strip where you aren't going to kill anyone but yourself, vs.
doing them at a public airport where there's lots of other traffic you
may or not know about who aren't particularly appreciative of having
someone hotdogging in the pattern.

Missed approaches are a standard thing that is practiced by power
pilots all the time. It is true that glider low passes are a bit
faster followed by a steeper climb than Cessna missed approaches, but
they're a very similar speed and climb angle to 737 ones.

So It all just depends on how mixed your traffic is.

I learned to fly Tomahawks at Wellington International (110,000
movements/year), where most of the traffic was in fact 737's,
WhisperJets, A320s plus the odd 747SP/767/777 depending on exactly
which year you're talking about. But there aren't gliders there.

At our actual glider field there is a lot of light aircraft and
helicopter training, plus small turboprops (e.g. Cessna Caravan), plus
a Q300 ("Dash 8") service starting in October.

If you're flying somewhere that's only got single-engine 1950's spam
cans from Wichita or Vero Beach flying around fat dumb and happy then,
yeah, gliders could exceed their expectations.

There's a big difference between a missed approach in a power airplane
and a low pass in a glider. *A power plane has the option to change
course and/or extend the pattern if unexpected traffic shows up. *A
glider doesn't have a lot of options.

I don't care what airport you are flying out of. *You never know when
someone unexpected comes out of no where, clueless about the existence
of gliders and their limitations. *This was drilled home to me a number
of years ago when I was turning on to base at a remote airfield (after
announcing our pattern on the radio), only to discover a helicopter
hoovering 5' above the ground just off the arrival end of the runway.
We barely avoided a collision. *It turns out the helicopter pilot and
his instructor where so engrossed in their BFR they were oblivious that
anyone else was in the pattern, particularly a glider that didn't have
the option to do a go around.

A glider doing a low pass is *precisely* one that has the option to do
a go around! It's the one on a normal approach who doesn't have many
options (but still has options, unless dangerously low on energy).

You reinforce my point. All pilots should be aware that there can be
other aircraft around, and perhaps with different performance
characteristics to their own.