Aviation is too expensive

"Rosspilot" wrote in message
...
You raise some interesting points . . . answer is really just because
that's
what the market will bear.

Those who sell *anything* to pilots know that we love it so much we will
pay
whatever it costs to keep doing it, because the only form of protest is to
stop
paying . . . and stop flying.

I can't do that.

Kinda like cocaine, huh? :~)

"JWS" wrote in message
. ..
For the most part the cost of flying is basic economics, supply vs.
demand.

Not too many people want a 1978 VW, you cannot say the same about any 1978
single engine plane.

Why inspect the VW, if it quits running you may have to talk a walk some
where, different story with the airplane.

Maybe $2.65/gal for 100LL is reasonable, cannot say I have seen it sold
anywhere but airports here in the US. Some third world countries are
probably still burning it in cars. If that is the case, the oil companies
are making a specialty product just for airplanes.

What are the taxes on AvGas and Jet-A? It's around 38-45 cents on automobile
gas (The producers get about 9-15 cents, the parasites get four times as
much).

I do not know a lot about Piper parts and their cost, but the simple 36"
piece of fiberglass was probably built by hand, and they probably are
probably only selling a couple of them a year so there is no economy of
scale.

BINGO!! Cigar to JWS!!

He's not asking for cheap alternatives, he's asking why aviation
costs are
so disproportionate (i.e., why a 25 year old aircraft cost more
than it did
new).

supply and demand.

It's liability, too. Everyone tags on "x" percent, just to cover their
perceived risks.

Also "economies of scale". You'll find similar (expensive) situations
for boats and other niche items that don't have a huge market base.
And airplanes don't rust, meaning they can last longer than cars.
They do corrode, but that usually takes longer.

Jim Rosinski
N3825Q

"Rosspilot" wrote in message
...
You raise some interesting points . . . answer is really just because
that's
what the market will bear.

Those who sell *anything* to pilots know that we love it so much we will
pay
whatever it costs to keep doing it, because the only form of protest is to
stop
paying . . . and stop flying.

I can't do that.

Kinda like cocaine, huh? :~)


In more ways than one. You go up, then you come down. You are out a big pile
of money and have nothing to show for it but the experience.

And you can't wait to do it again. G


www.Rosspilot.com

On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 02:13:10 GMT, "JWS"
wrote:


Considering the conditions an airplane sparkplug has to operate in, it is
probably worth more than $1.99. Look what an airplane engine has to do
compared to a car engine. Try running your car from idle to full throttle,
hold at full throttle under load for extended time periods and repeat. Check
out some of the experimental flyers who with some degree of success use
automotive engines in their planes, very few car engines can handle the
task. Plus, Wal-Mart sells a lot more sparkplugs that your aviation parts
supplier.

The auto conversions fly just like their more expensive cousins, using
the same manifold pressures and use ordinary auto spark plugs.

I should post the article I have that describes the development of an
ordinary Chevy V-6. The number of hours the engines spend at full
throttle and the torture they go through is by FAR more severe than
the FAA's mandated testing for new aircraft engines. Here's one small
excerpt:

"Thermal cycle tests are run to define engine capability under cold
weather condition. We run the engine at full throttle at 4000 RPM,
bring it down to idle, stop it, switch the coolant valves to drain the
hot coolant, pump the chilled coolant from the chiller until the metal
temperature stabilizes at 0 degrees F. Frost forms on the outside of
the block, as the cold coolant rushes into the engine. When it
stabilizes at 0 F, we motor the engine, start it, come to full
throttle at 4400 RPM, the valves switch and the coolant temperature
starts to climb. It climbs back up to 260 degrees F. It takes 10 -11
minutes to complete one cycle. The engine must pass 600 cycles
without any sign of failure. We typically run 1200 cycles and a probe
test will run 1600 cycles. That's a (sic) excellent gasket killer
test. Head gaskets are the first to fail because of the rapid
expansion and contraction."

Chevy is only typical, all automakers butcher their engines like this
during development. They have to, if they produce a dog or
maintenance hog, their reputation will take a long time to rebuild and
money, lots of it, will be lost.

Corky Scott

It's liability, too. Everyone tags on "x" percent, just to cover their
perceived risks.

And with our judicial system (read "jurors") handing out rewards of $480
MILLION for a crash (that the guy lived through)....I can understand why
they'd want that coverage. (I understand its been overturned recently
though, thank God)......

(this is where our resident lawyer Larry gets to pipe in about it being
"fair"

Biggest problem with money and flying is that if you say "I'm a pilot", the
general public thinks you must be rich. I can buy a sub-$20k airplane and
my best friend can spend $30k for a new bass boat. But who do you think Joe
Average will think has the most money?

Corky Scott wrote:

The auto conversions fly just like their more expensive cousins, using
the same manifold pressures and use ordinary auto spark plugs.

I should post the article I have that describes the development of an
ordinary Chevy V-6. The number of hours the engines spend at full
throttle and the torture they go through is by FAR more severe than
the FAA's mandated testing for new aircraft engines.

Attach a 6 foot propeller to the crank and everything changes. That introduces
stresses and vibrations that auto engines never dreamed of.


--
Chris Woodhouse
Oklahoma City

"They that can give up essential liberty
to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania

"Rosspilot" wrote in message
...
"Rosspilot" wrote in message
...
You raise some interesting points . . . answer is really just because
that's
what the market will bear.

Those who sell *anything* to pilots know that we love it so much we
will
pay
whatever it costs to keep doing it, because the only form of protest is
to
stop
paying . . . and stop flying.

I can't do that.

Kinda like cocaine, huh? :~)


In more ways than one. You go up, then you come down. You are out a big
pile
of money and have nothing to show for it but the experience.

And you can't wait to do it again. G

Sounds like an amusement ride in Las Vegas that my grandkids went on.
I don't remember the name, but I do remember the parent's shelling out $15
for a 0:01:40 experience. Let's see, what kind of airplane could I rent for
that $540 per hour....?
Relatively speaking, a C-172 is pretty cheap.

"H.J." wrote in message
...
You can rent a Ferrari for $200 PER DAY.

Really? Where? Around here, all you can get for (about) $200 is a Boxster
or a C5 Corvette. The local "exotic" rental place doesn't have a Ferrari
anymore, but if I recall, when they did it was more like $500/day or so.

Has anybody ever rented a C-172 for $200 per day?

Again, comparing to the exotic rental around here, there are a lot more
restrictions with the cars. A 100-200 mile/day limit is common, as is a
requirement to remain in this state. The local shop includes only 75 miles
in the daily rate, and for a Ferrari (if they still had it) would charge
$1/mile for additional mileage. I'd be hard-pressed to spend $200 using a
C172 within those restrictions.

A ferrari has more horsepower, higher Vne, and is more
complex.

And requires far less training in order to use, creating a much larger
market.

So, Why can't a new generic-ish plane sell for $25,000? and rent for $60
per
day?

Haven't you been reading this thread?

Maybe it is an economy-of-scale issue, but if a plane sold for a more
reasonable price, half the guys in town would get one and then there'd be
no
economy-of-scale problem, right?

"Half the guys in town" wouldn't be able to fly one. It takes a particular
commitment and motivation to learn to fly a plane. Even if aviation were
less expensive, you wouldn't have 100 million (or so) pilots in the U.S.

Beyond that, there may be a bit of the chicken/egg thing going on, but there
are lots of other reasons why aviation is expensive too. It's just not true
that, if overnight you could reduce the price point of 4-seater piston
aviation to match that of a typical family sedan, there'd be no
economy-of-scale problem.

Pete

"H.J." wrote in
:

snip

Fuel is $2.65 for self serve 100LL! Does it have pure gold flakes in
it? Why isnt it $1.50?

I'll support the argument of supply and demand with a paraphrasing of an
article that I read a few weeks ago....


You're complaining about paying $2.65 for gas. How much did you pay for the
Gallon of Milk you bought at the grocery store? $2.99? How about a gallon
of coffee? If you buy it at Dunkins, you probably pay $1.50 or so for a 16
oz coffee (2 cups). To make a gallon, you would need to buy 8 of those!
That makes $12 / gallon! And they're the cheap ones! If you go to Starbucks
you probably pay more than DOUBLE that! $24/gallon of coffee! And while I
know that your morning coffee might provide that extra "lift" to get
through the day, I suspect that you would give it up in a heartbeat to pay
for a little over an hour of flying in most light singles (2 hours in
some)!

Wait. I'm not done!

You know water? That stuff that you can go to the tap, turn the knob, and
get for pennies on the gallon? Well, if you take that water, put it in a 20
oz bottle, and put a blue label on it, you can go to a soda machine and pay
up to $2.00 for it! Well, that equates to $12.80 / gallon of water! WATER!!
You are going to pay nearly $13 for something that if you walked past the
soda machine to the bathroom you could get for FREE!

So you see, it's all about marketing - supply and demand is king. The
reason someone can get $50k for a 20 year old piper is because there is
someone willing to pay that much for it. And while that someone may not be
you or me, it's someone...

But then, I generally make my coffee in a pot at home using water that
comes out of the tap...