Winch Clinic

On Mon, 23 Jan 2012 10:13:10 -0800 (PST), JohnDeRosa
wrote:
.... text deleted
Excuse me for appearing stupid, but I was under the impression that
you needed a CG hook to winch launch and that a Schweizer hook was
especially bad to use because when the tow cable is approaches 90
degrees to the release arm, the bale (name? thing the pilot actually
moves during a release) is under so much load that it cannot be pulled
aft. I'd like to know more. Thanks, John

I can't speak to winch launching, but in the 70's our club (auto tow
only) did tens of thousands of auto tows (with no problems) on
Schweizer tow hooks.

Our 2-33 was equipped with both a "forward" hook (not really a nose
hook in today's sense) and an aft "cg" hook. Our 2-22 and 1-26's had
only the standard Schweizer forward hook.

The 2-33 with the cg hook could get a couple of hundred feet more
height than the other ships, but other than that there was no
difference.

To be fair however, on auto tow, there is actually not much load on
the rope at the top of a normal launch. Unlike the winch, the line is
not being pulled in.

Bob

On 1/23/2012 3:10 PM, Brad wrote:
On Jan 23, 12:51 pm, wrote:
On 1/23/2012 12:01 PM, Frank Whiteley wrote:









On Jan 23, 11:13 am, wrote:
On Jan 19, 7:16 pm, Frank wrote:

As found on Barnstormers.com

GLIDER WINCH CLINIC IN SO CAL • $375 • EVENT ANNOUNCEMENT • YOU'RE
INVITED! • Instruction on flight and operations of winch launching
with a modern winch built by Roman Wrosz. Space limited. March 9-11,
2012. Fly-in or drive to Jacumba, CA (L78). The demonstration and
training flights performed in the beautiful Schweizer 2-33. Four hours
of ground instruction, followed by two days of flight school. •
Contact Bud Robinson - ASSOCIATED GLIDER CLUBS OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA,
Friend of Owner - located San Diego, CA USA • Telephone:619-436-8010begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 619-436-8010

Excuse me for appearing stupid, but I was under the impression that
you needed a CG hook to winch launch and that a Schweizer hook was
especially bad to use because when the tow cable is approaches 90
degrees to the release arm, the bale (name? thing the pilot actually
moves during a release) is under so much load that it cannot be pulled
aft. I'd like to know more. Thanks, John

Snip...

I've winched launched 2-33's a lot from the nose hook with no
problems. My greater concern is fouling the strop in the skid. Not
aware of any that have failed to back release at the power cut that
I've launched, but the pilots always pull twice anyway. Plan B is cut
the rope.

Frank Whiteley

"What Frank said." For several winters back in the (I think) 1990s various
SSB-ers used to winch launch our nose-hook-only-equipped 2-33. Other than
noticeable elevator separation/porpoising on the way up if one "over-pulled",
all was utterly straightforward. Of course we did "the usual pushover" at the
top of the arc, firmly/fully pulled the release twice, and visually verified
successful release before initiating any turn. Plan B was to chop the
(single-strand, well-logging) wire at the winch. Plan C was to circle to a
close-in-to-the-winch landing pointed at the winch.

Never had a hook-related/release issue of which I was aware. Plan A always
worked without drama.

Regards,
Bob W.

So.......................I could winch launch my glider using the nose
mounted Tost unit?

That would be great!

Brad

I smell a leg being pulled here...

I didn't think it necessary to note Schweizer hooks have a back release
feature. I seem to have missed ever seeing one on a Tost nose hook.

Just sayin'...

Anally,
Bob W.

On Jan 23, 3:10*pm, Brad wrote:
On Jan 23, 12:51*pm, BobW wrote:









On 1/23/2012 12:01 PM, Frank Whiteley wrote:

On Jan 23, 11:13 am, *wrote:
On Jan 19, 7:16 pm, Frank *wrote:

As found on Barnstormers.com

GLIDER WINCH CLINIC IN SO CAL • $375 • EVENT ANNOUNCEMENT • YOU'RE
INVITED! • Instruction on flight and operations of winch launching
with a modern winch built by Roman Wrosz. Space limited. March 9-11,
2012. Fly-in or drive to Jacumba, CA (L78). The demonstration and
training flights performed in the beautiful Schweizer 2-33. Four hours
of ground instruction, followed by two days of flight school. •
Contact Bud Robinson - ASSOCIATED GLIDER CLUBS OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA,
Friend of Owner - located San Diego, CA USA • Telephone:619-436-8010begin_of_the_skype_highlighting * * * * * *619-436-8010

Excuse me for appearing stupid, but I was under the impression that
you needed a CG hook to winch launch and that a Schweizer hook was
especially bad to use because when the tow cable is approaches 90
degrees to the release arm, the bale (name? *thing the pilot actually
moves during a release) is under so much load that it cannot be pulled
aft. * * I'd like to know more. *Thanks, John

Snip...

I've winched launched 2-33's a lot from the nose hook with no
problems. *My greater concern is fouling the strop in the skid. *Not
aware of any that have failed to back release at the power cut that
I've launched, but the pilots always pull twice anyway. *Plan B is cut
the rope.

Frank Whiteley

"What Frank said." For several winters back in the (I think) 1990s various
SSB-ers used to winch launch our nose-hook-only-equipped 2-33. Other than
noticeable elevator separation/porpoising on the way up if one "over-pulled",
all was utterly straightforward. Of course we did "the usual pushover" at the
top of the arc, firmly/fully pulled the release twice, and visually verified
successful release before initiating any turn. Plan B was to chop the
(single-strand, well-logging) wire at the winch. Plan C was to circle to a
close-in-to-the-winch landing pointed at the winch.

Never had a hook-related/release issue of which I was aware. Plan A always
worked without drama.

Regards,
Bob W.

So.......................I could winch launch my glider using the nose
mounted Tost unit?

That would be great!

Brad

TOST nose hook won't back release, back to the drawing board you two!

On Jan 23, 3:22*pm, Tony wrote:
On Jan 23, 4:10*pm, Brad wrote:









On Jan 23, 12:51*pm, BobW wrote:

On 1/23/2012 12:01 PM, Frank Whiteley wrote:

On Jan 23, 11:13 am, *wrote:
On Jan 19, 7:16 pm, Frank *wrote:

As found on Barnstormers.com

GLIDER WINCH CLINIC IN SO CAL • $375 • EVENT ANNOUNCEMENT • YOU'RE
INVITED! • Instruction on flight and operations of winch launching
with a modern winch built by Roman Wrosz. Space limited. March 9-11,
2012. Fly-in or drive to Jacumba, CA (L78). The demonstration and
training flights performed in the beautiful Schweizer 2-33. Four hours
of ground instruction, followed by two days of flight school. •
Contact Bud Robinson - ASSOCIATED GLIDER CLUBS OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA,
Friend of Owner - located San Diego, CA USA • Telephone:619-436-8010begin_of_the_skype_highlighting * * * * * *619-436-8010

Excuse me for appearing stupid, but I was under the impression that
you needed a CG hook to winch launch and that a Schweizer hook was
especially bad to use because when the tow cable is approaches 90
degrees to the release arm, the bale (name? *thing the pilot actually
moves during a release) is under so much load that it cannot be pulled
aft. * * I'd like to know more. *Thanks, John

Snip...

I've winched launched 2-33's a lot from the nose hook with no
problems. *My greater concern is fouling the strop in the skid. *Not
aware of any that have failed to back release at the power cut that
I've launched, but the pilots always pull twice anyway. *Plan B is cut
the rope.

Frank Whiteley

"What Frank said." For several winters back in the (I think) 1990s various
SSB-ers used to winch launch our nose-hook-only-equipped 2-33. Other than
noticeable elevator separation/porpoising on the way up if one "over-pulled",
all was utterly straightforward. Of course we did "the usual pushover" at the
top of the arc, firmly/fully pulled the release twice, and visually verified
successful release before initiating any turn. Plan B was to chop the
(single-strand, well-logging) wire at the winch. Plan C was to circle to a
close-in-to-the-winch landing pointed at the winch.

Never had a hook-related/release issue of which I was aware. Plan A always
worked without drama.

Regards,
Bob W.

So.......................I could winch launch my glider using the nose
mounted Tost unit?

That would be great!

Brad

you might want to ask Bob K first

Stan Hall was not a fan of winch launching on a nosehook and from what
i've read made it pretty clear that he did not design the cherokee for
ground launch loads. *Didn't stop some people though and I know of at
least one winch launch rip the wings off fatal in a Cherokee II.
Although odds are there was something not quite right with the wings
too. *There is a Cherokee in Australia that is regularly winch
launched although that is with a tost hook on the CG and firmly
attached to the fuselage bulkhead that includes wing attach at the top
and main wheel at the bottom, in other words, very tough. *I'll stick
with aerotow.

Hi Tony,

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/br...13X27021&key=1
Not a Cherokee, this glider had fluttered previously on an aero tow
launch in Boulder and was refused further launches. Evidence of water
damage in structure. Doubled weak link unknown to winch crew.

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/br...14X42732&key=1

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/br...15X13631&key=1
Probably responsible for Charis no longer insuring steel wire rope.

http://www.asias.faa.gov/portal/pls/...NARR_VAR=winch
I thought this was an L-13. I believe the glider impacted several
parked power aircraft.

http://www.asias.faa.gov/portal/pls/...NARR_VAR=winch
Yoke problem

Still, I find no Cherokee II winch launch incidents. Details please.

I have a FACEBOOK proposition for you.

Frank

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/br...id=69003&key=0 was the
one I was thinking about, particularly.

There was also a stall/spin during a winch launch in Australia,
although this was likely a pilot problem not a glider problem. Not
clear if it was a nose hook or CG hook.
http://www.atsb.gov.au/mwg-internal/...?id=zZ6wAFQTTM

give me a call in the evening and we can talk.

On Jan 23, 9:57*pm, Frank Whiteley wrote:
Stan Hall was not a fan of winch launching on a nosehook and from what
i've read made it pretty clear that he did not design the cherokee for
ground launch loads. *Didn't stop some people though and I know of at
least one winch launch rip the wings off fatal in a Cherokee II.
Although odds are there was something not quite right with the wings
too. *There is a Cherokee in Australia that is regularly winch
launched although that is with a tost hook on the CG and firmly
attached to the fuselage bulkhead that includes wing attach at the top
and main wheel at the bottom, in other words, very tough. *I'll stick
with aerotow.

Hi Tony,

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/br...13X27021&key=1
Not a Cherokee, this glider had fluttered previously on an aero tow
launch in Boulder and was refused further launches. *Evidence of water
damage in structure. *Doubled weak link unknown to winch crew.

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/br...14X42732&key=1

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/br...15X13631&key=1
Probably responsible for Charis no longer insuring steel wire rope.

http://www.asias.faa.gov/portal/pls/...RIEF_REPORT_PU...
I thought this was an L-13. *I believe the glider impacted several
parked power aircraft.

http://www.asias.faa.gov/portal/pls/...RIEF_REPORT_PU...
Yoke problem

Still, I find no Cherokee II winch launch incidents. *Details please.

I have a FACEBOOK proposition for you.

I, too, have heard stories of a Cherokee suffering a structural
failure during either a winch or auto tow, specifically at Air
Sailing, which lead to them banning ground launches there. The
closest thing I've been able to find is this:

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/br...id=85473&key=0

Given that the winch we've been building is getting close to test
phase, I expect I'll be hearing a lot more about these accidents
soon...

Marc

Originally Posted by JohnDeRosa

On Jan 19, 7:16*pm, Frank Whiteley wrote:
As found on Barnstormers.com

GLIDER WINCH CLINIC IN SO CAL • $375 • EVENT ANNOUNCEMENT • YOU'RE
INVITED! • Instruction on flight and operations of winch launching
with a modern winch built by Roman Wrosz. Space limited. March 9-11,
2012. Fly-in or drive to Jacumba, CA (L78). The demonstration and
training flights performed in the beautiful Schweizer 2-33. Four hours
of ground instruction, followed by two days of flight school. •
Contact Bud Robinson - ASSOCIATED GLIDER CLUBS OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA,
Friend of Owner - located San Diego, CA USA • Telephone:619-436-8010begin_of_the_skype_highlighting************619-436-8010

Excuse me for appearing stupid, but I was under the impression that
you needed a CG hook to winch launch and that a Schweizer hook was
especially bad to use because when the tow cable is approaches 90
degrees to the release arm, the bale (name? thing the pilot actually
moves during a release) is under so much load that it cannot be pulled
aft. I'd like to know more. Thanks, John

In June of 2010, these fine gentlemen trailered a 2-33 with a CG hook and Roman's winch to Estrella Sailport Arizona and gave this clinic for about six of us. It was well organized, a great experience, and I highly recommend the clinic if you are able to attend.

Jordan

On Mon, 23 Jan 2012 21:57:56 -0800, Frank Whiteley wrote:

http://www.asias.faa.gov/portal/pls/...EF_REPORT_PUB?
EV_ID=19790922051039G&NARR_VAR=winch
I thought this was an L-13. I believe the glider impacted several
parked power aircraft.

Off-thread comment *but* this should not, in any way, have been blamed on
the winch driver "misinterpreting a signal".

If the summary cause (glider launched without pilot on board) is correct,
the blame falls squarely on whoever put the cable on the glider. There is
never any excuse for a glider to be attached to a cable until the PIC is
strapped in, has done his checks and is ready to take an immediate launch.



--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On 1/24/2012 1:40 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Mon, 23 Jan 2012 21:57:56 -0800, Frank Whiteley wrote:

http://www.asias.faa.gov/portal/pls/...EF_REPORT_PUB?
EV_ID=19790922051039G&NARR_VAR=winch
I thought this was an L-13. I believe the glider impacted several
parked power aircraft.

Off-thread comment *but* this should not, in any way, have been blamed on
the winch driver "misinterpreting a signal".

If the summary cause (glider launched without pilot on board) is correct,
the blame falls squarely on whoever put the cable on the glider. There is
never any excuse for a glider to be attached to a cable until the PIC is
strapped in, has done his checks and is ready to take an immediate launch.


Indeed. Even we colonials recognize the limitations of our NTSB's
investigations into "low profile" accidents. :-)

OTOH, NTSB Final Cause reports on glider accidents *can* enhance one's
critical thinking skills, which isn't all bad for glider pilots...

Bob W.

There are two types of TOST releases, The nose release does not back release, bur the CG type does.

As far as the Schweizer goes, it back releases by the ring slipping back and pulling the bail. It is required to check for wear/roughness that would cause problems with the release.