Help me clear up my brain fart

"Ekim" wrote in message om...

Was all that preaching JUST to reduce the chance of invoking a deadly
spin in case the wings are accidentally stalled?

Yes, by an ignorant flight instructor. While keeping in coordinated flight
will certainly alleviate the chances of spinning, a slip doesn't mean you
necessarily will. Avoiding stalling is really important. You can't spin without
stalling and even stalls without spins on approach aren't a good idea.

It seems to all
contradict everything about slips on final and the famous
"low-wing-into-the-wind" crosswind landings?

You have to slip at some point in a crosswind unless you're going to
touch down in a crab which is bad for most aircraft.

In my mind, as long as I keep my airspeed sufficiently high and keep
the nose pointed down, (ie. keep my AOA under control) things like a
steeper banks and routine slip to landings should be relatively safe.
Right?

Well slips are ok. Steeper banks are still a problem. Remember your
accellerated stall drills.

On 11 Nov 2003 04:25:56 -0800, (Ekim) wrote:

"Never cross control!!!"
"Keep that ball centered!"
"Never use more than 20 degrees bank!"
"Too high on final - go around. Never slip unless its an emergency
landing."

These are things that were hammered in my head by my numerous CFIs
during pattern training as a student pilot. Now that I have my PPL,
you would think I should have this understood. Unfortunately, now this
is really twisted up in my head.

Was all that preaching JUST to reduce the chance of invoking a deadly
spin in case the wings are accidentally stalled? It seems to all
contradict everything about slips on final and the famous
"low-wing-into-the-wind" crosswind landings?

In my mind, as long as I keep my airspeed sufficiently high and keep
the nose pointed down, (ie. keep my AOA under control) things like a
steeper banks and routine slip to landings should be relatively safe.
Right?

Thanks,
Ekim

Ekim, my opinion (being a freshly minted pilot) is that the
information you were given may depend on the size and width of the
runway you train from as well as the attitude of the CFI's.

Where I trained, the runways are long and wide. The instructor was
constanty telling me to keep my speed up on final. All approaches
were made with 1500 rpm on the tachometer. This made for wide
patterns and necessitated the use of flaps on final. Why did he teach
this? Many reasons, but mostly for safety's sake. It's really hard
to stall/spin in the pattern if you keep your speed up. The other
reason involves a bit of conjecture on my part. The FBO is located at
the opposite end of both runnway's that are in most common use. If
you land short, and the C172 can land impressively short, you have a
long taxi back to the ramp. If you land hot and long, the taxi is
that much shorter.

At an airfield that has a short grass runway, the approach might
necessitate a steeper descent using some slipping.

Keeping some power on may be considered a method for preventing shock
cooling the engine, I don't know. But there are many methods for
landing including cutting the throttle completely and turning in
sooner to take advantage of the more rapid rate of descent.

Mike wrote:
Keep the ball centered in cruise and in turns, unless you're slipping in a
turn. A lot of times I throw in a little top rudder in the base to final
turn to bleed off excess altitude.

I used this technique just this weekend. I was on base and realised
that I'd turned in a bit early and was high. So as I turned on final,
I added a lot of top rudder and held the turn and kept the speed up
and spilled off most of the excess altitude in a cross controlled
turn.

I fly a lot with a friend who owns a Waco UPF-7 biplane. Like most
biplanes, it doesn't have flaps, so the approach is controlled by
slipping. Being a biplane and having all that drag, the Waco drops
like a rock once the approach speed is reached and the throttle is
chopped. Without slipping, the rate of descent reaches 2,000 fpm. We
always end up high on final, to make sure the runway can be reached,
whereupon the left wing goes way down and a LOT of right rudder is
applied and we come down like a broken elevator.

I once watched a video of a C-130 approaching to land at an airstrip
under hostile fire in Vietnam. It stayed high until I assumed it
wasn't going to land, then it lifted up a wing and kicked in opposite
rudder and dropped like it had been shot down. If I hadn't been
watching, I would have said it wasn't possible to handle that size an
airplane like that. But it worked.

Corky Scott

On 11 Nov 2003 04:25:56 -0800, (Ekim) wrote:

"Too high on final - go around. Never slip unless its an emergency
landing."

!!!

Use all the tools in your box, in all the appropriate places, say I.

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

"Ekim" wrote in message
om...
In my mind, as long as I keep my airspeed sufficiently high and keep
the nose pointed down, (ie. keep my AOA under control) things like a
steeper banks and routine slip to landings should be relatively safe.
Right?

Right.

In fact, the admonition to never go beyond some arbitrarily low bank angle
while in the pattern is thought to be one of the common ways that
low-altitude stall/spin accidents happen. Pilot thinks steep bank angles
are bad, is overshooting final, tries to compensate without a steep bank
angle by using rudder to get the nose around, then stalls in the skidding
turn.

It's obviously much better if you can always fly a nice, easy pattern. But
when things don't go perfectly, the right thing to do is *fly the airplane*,
doing what's necessary to acheive your goals safely. Coordinated flight is
safe. Slips are safe. If the turn needs to be steeper in order to keep the
plane coordinated, so be it. If you need to slip to correct for extra
altitude on final, go right ahead.

There may well be situations in which the more prudent decision is to go
around and try again. You are expected to identify those situations and
take appropriate action when necessary. But there's nothing inherently
wrong with a steep turn or a slip that automatically requires such an
action.

Pete

(Ekim) wrote in message . com...
"Never cross control!!!"
"Keep that ball centered!"
"Never use more than 20 degrees bank!"
"Too high on final - go around. Never slip unless its an emergency
landing."

At my school we were told "not more than 30 degrees of bank in the
pattern". I personally heard from my instructors to keep the ball
centered unless you were slipping. We did practice slipping, it was
regarded as something you needed to know and show you could do it, but
not normal procedure.

I also heard a lot of "more right rudder", but that was just me...

-Malcolm

"Malcolm Teas" wrote in message om...

At my school we were told "not more than 30 degrees of bank in the
pattern". I personally heard from my instructors to keep the ball
centered unless you were slipping.

All good advice.

We did practice slipping, it was
regarded as something you needed to know and show you could do it, but
not normal procedure.

It's essential to crosswind landings.

I also heard a lot of "more right rudder", but that was just me...

Standard flight instructor mantra.

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
. ..

"Malcolm Teas" wrote in message
om...

At my school we were told "not more than 30 degrees of bank in the
pattern". I personally heard from my instructors to keep the ball
centered unless you were slipping.

All good advice.

We did practice slipping, it was
regarded as something you needed to know and show you could do it, but
not normal procedure.

It's essential to crosswind landings.

I also heard a lot of "more right rudder", but that was just me...

Standard flight instructor mantra.

Okay...flame war time!

OWT: Power determines pitch, and pitch determines speed.

power plus pitch equals performance

mike regish

"Tom S." wrote in message
...

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
. ..

"Malcolm Teas" wrote in message
om...

At my school we were told "not more than 30 degrees of bank in the
pattern". I personally heard from my instructors to keep the ball
centered unless you were slipping.

All good advice.

We did practice slipping, it was
regarded as something you needed to know and show you could do it, but
not normal procedure.

It's essential to crosswind landings.

I also heard a lot of "more right rudder", but that was just me...

Standard flight instructor mantra.

Okay...flame war time!

OWT: Power determines pitch, and pitch determines speed.

"Malcolm Teas" wrote in message
om...
(Ekim) wrote in message
. com...
"Never cross control!!!"
"Keep that ball centered!"
"Never use more than 20 degrees bank!"
"Too high on final - go around. Never slip unless its an emergency
landing."

At my school we were told "not more than 30 degrees of bank in the
pattern". I personally heard from my instructors to keep the ball
centered unless you were slipping.


We did practice slipping, it was
regarded as something you needed to know and show you could do it, but
not normal procedure.

How, pray tell, do you land in a cross wind? I think I am starting to
understand why watching people land in a cross wind is so entertaining but
hell on the airframe. Slips are one of the most usefull tools you can
develop. It's a shame you have missed that important part of your training.

I also heard a lot of "more right rudder", but that was just me...

-Malcolm

Mike made a good point about the difference in stall characteristics
between a slip and a skid. Based on my reading and from really
thinking about the aerodynamics of both, a slip is more spin
'resistant' than a skid for several reasons. Notice I said resistant
and not proof. Probably the most important reason is that in a slip
the roll and yaw component have been decoupled. In other words the
direction of roll and yaw are opposite. This is one reason why the
wings return to level first in a stall from a slip. If you think
about what each control input is doing to the AOA on each wing in a
slip it should become clear that the high wing stall first. In a
skid, the opposite is true and both roll and yaw are in the same
direction, which is a bad thing. In a skid the lower wing stalls
first and as Mike said, you'll probably find yourself inverted
quickly.

Another benefit of a slip is that a large area of the elevator is
blanked by the vertical stabilizer because the relative wind is
coming more from the side. Therefore, because airflow is blocked over
a portion of the elevator, there may not be enough elevator authority
to stall the plane. The third point is that with the relative wind
coming from the side, the fuselage is also acting as a lifting
surface, just not an effective one. A few good books to read on the
subject would be Emergency Maneuver Training by Stowell, Stalls,
Spins, and Safety by Sammy Mason, and Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators
to name a few.

Dave
(Ekim) wrote in message . com...
"Never cross control!!!"
"Keep that ball centered!"
"Never use more than 20 degrees bank!"
"Too high on final - go around. Never slip unless its an emergency
landing."

These are things that were hammered in my head by my numerous CFIs
during pattern training as a student pilot. Now that I have my PPL,
you would think I should have this understood. Unfortunately, now this
is really twisted up in my head.

Was all that preaching JUST to reduce the chance of invoking a deadly
spin in case the wings are accidentally stalled? It seems to all
contradict everything about slips on final and the famous
"low-wing-into-the-wind" crosswind landings?

In my mind, as long as I keep my airspeed sufficiently high and keep
the nose pointed down, (ie. keep my AOA under control) things like a
steeper banks and routine slip to landings should be relatively safe.
Right?

Thanks,
Ekim