Snag in x/c planning

On 12 Nov 2003 13:01:26 -0800, (Greg) wrote:

4) I have never used Fligh****ch. How do you know when to call on
122.0 and when to listen on VOR's, etc. Also what is the correct
phraseology to ask for a weather update?

You can call Flight Watch at any time. They'll help you with the
phraseology.

"Seattle Flight Watch, November 12345 at Kelso"
"November 12345, Seattle Flight Watch, go ahead"
"Yes Flight Watch, N12345 requests landing conditions at Astoria
N12345"
"N12345 Flight Watch, I cannot give *landing* conditions, but I can
offer *current* conditions there over"
"Flight Watch N12345 I stand corrected; request current conditions
Astoria"
"N12345 current conditions at Astoria are 20 degrees celsius, dewpoint
10, winds 290 at 15 gusting to 30, visibility 20 miles, overcast 5000
feet. Do you have security information Quebec" [OK, I made the weather
up, but the rest of the conversation actually happened! :-)]
"Affirmative Flight Watch, I have Quebec."
"Roger N12345, have a good day."
"Good day"

Very professional. They'll help you along.

Rob

--
[You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them
ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to
educate themselves.

-- Orson Scott Card

See answers below: this is hoew I have foundit to work and I've gone
PHX to New England, and south to Savannah from Connecticut. I mostly
use IFR now, even on clear days, for cross country flights.

On 12 Nov 2003 13:01:26 -0800, (Greg) wrote:

I was going to ask my CFI these questions but I figured these groups
are so rich with information and opinions that I would start here.

I am a 120 hr PP planning a VFR X/C from Bowman field Louisville, KY
(KLOU) to Mattoon, IL (KMTO) this weekend. According to the new AOPA
flight planner (very cool, by the way)this takes me right through the
middle of a TFR southwest of the Hoosier Vortac. To complicate things
there is a restricted area smack dab in the middle of the TFR (these
are ground to... well higher than I can fly right?). My gut is
telling me not to chance being where I'm not supposed to be and make
the trip via Bloomington,IN (KBMG)to avoid any possible trouble . If
you look at the sectional there aren't too many land marks in that
area and it would be easy fly over the TFR but through the resticted
area. I have a rather old GPS on board that is very small, in a
strange place (down and to the right of the yoke), and it is as old as
dirt..no telling when it was last updated. So here are some
questions..

1)So what do you guys think? Do I fly over it? Or am I asking for
trouble? (this TFR, if I understand correctly, is from the ground to
5000 AGL). Obviously, this would be a bad place to loose the engine!


If the TFR and restricted area only go to 5000 and you are at 7000
then you are no in the TFR, meaning you are 1000 miles away just as
much as you are 2000 feet above it. What about the Restricted area?
What is THAT altitude???

Direct is not all that it is cracked up to be - if it were me and I am
not IFR [ when it is THEIR job to keep you out of TFR's - good to know
where they are but YOUR certificate is not at risk] thne I would
simply find 2 or 3 VOR's and plot a zig zag course around the TFR by
going direct around the TFR - much saferl. AS for engine failure,
well, that is an emergency and you are OK inside a TFR from above if
you DECLARE an emergency.


2)If I fly direct will ATC (flight following) help me stay clear or
will they let me wander into the restricted area and then say, "now
look what you've done dumbass...land and give us a call" (In so many
words) My girlfriend isn't a huge fan of small planes anyway so an
F-16 on my wingtip would be bad, really bad.

VFR Flight Following will NOT guarantee anything, including separation
or obstacle clearance. VFR means VFR - flight following is an as
available service IF the controller is NOT busy.

3) If I go via BMG how do I ask for flight following? I am assuming
that I just tell them that I am going to MTO via BMG at 7,500. If
this is correct and I am granted flight following am I obligated to
fly all the way to BMG or can I turn on course to MTO a little south
of BMG?

Depends on the controller - they will ASK your desitination. On a
long X-country, if you pass through or near any Class B airspace you
will likely get dropped from flight following VFR does not get
automated handoffs for the most part - a controller phone call is
needed - again, depends on demand. Once you tell them your
destination they will assume you are going direct unless you give them
a routing. Remember you are VFR - you can do anything you want - if
you change destination or altitude tell them as you are doing it. If
you wander too much or do stuffand do not tell the controller, you may
get the dreaded: "N----- - radar service terminated squawk VFR." You
be nice to them and they'll be nice to you = that mean no altitude
changes without notice and if need to deviate to stay VFR tell them -
and if you need to deviate ask them the weather.

4) I have never used Fligh****ch. How do you know when to call on
122.0 and when to listen on VOR's, etc. Also what is the correct
phraseology to ask for a weather update?

122.0 or 122.2 will get you fligh****ch almost everywhere. If you do
not have an IFR chart and do not know the flight watch booundaries
[which are set forth on a low-alt IFR chart and also are in the AFD,
but the AFD is less than helpful since it is not exactly a map] the
blind call is, in my airplane:

"Flight Watch, Cherokee 8846J 10 miles south of MTO".- or whereever .

You may need to call 2-3 times to get a response but LISTEN since
they will tell you the name of the Flight watch when they return the
call. Then ask them for a wx update with tail number, location,
direction of flight, destination and route.

Be prepated to give them a PIREP = the only way we get pireps is if we
give them!

If you HAVE flight following, you need to ask permission to change
freqs to 'go to flight watch.' The controller will tell you
'approved' and then tell you to check in after you get back.


Joe Farrell
N8846J IJD





Thanks in advace guys and gals!

Greg

(Greg) wrote in message . com...
I was going to ask my CFI these questions but I figured these groups
are so rich with information and opinions that I would start here.

Especially with opinions! *g*

I am a 120 hr PP planning a VFR X/C from Bowman field Louisville, KY
(KLOU) to Mattoon, IL (KMTO) this weekend. According to the new AOPA
flight planner (very cool, by the way)this takes me right through the
middle of a TFR southwest of the Hoosier Vortac. To complicate things
there is a restricted area smack dab in the middle of the TFR (these
are ground to... well higher than I can fly right?).

Not necessarily. My old St. Louis sectional says R3404 only goes
up to 2,500 ft.

I didn't pull up the TFR on DUATS. I'd call FSS for a briefing.
It may have been a temporary thing. What does AOPA give as the
radius for the TFR?

telling me not to chance being where I'm not supposed to be and make
the trip via Bloomington,IN (KBMG)to avoid any possible trouble. If
you look at the sectional there aren't too many land marks in that
area and it would be easy fly over the TFR but through the resticted
area.

Well, it's up to you -- I dunno your reason for choosing Mattoon
as a destination, but if you're going to get practical value from
your PPL sooner or later you need to build confidence that you can
avoid TFRs and Restricted areas.

When I slap a ruler on my old sectional, it looks to me as though
R3404 is about 4 nm to the N of your direct route, but if you're
concerned, you could always fly Victor airways, which will take
you over Terre Haute then west. It'll add about 10% to your trip.

Myself, I think I'd fly direct. Using the formula for line-of-sight
(assuming no mountains etc in the way)
nm = 1.23 x sqrt ( height agl in feet ), if you're flying about
4500 ft you should be able to track LOU outbound for more than
80 nm and MTO inbound for about the same. If your equipment is
up to par you should only have a coverage gap of a few nm, if
any.

Looks to me like there's a nice pair of man-made lakes just
W of Hwy 231 which should be good landmarks. The V-shaped one
just N of Loogootee in particular. You could track outbound
on whatever LOU radial will head you for that lake (looks
like about 295 to me, but that's just a SWAG) or just to the
S of it depending upon the radius of the TFR. Then pick up
whatever will take you direct MTO.

Or fly direct by pilotage if you prefer . I don't think that
route is as bereft of good landmarks as you think. Remember the
most useful landmarks are often those a couple miles to the side
of your direct route.

1)So what do you guys think? Do I fly over it? Or am I asking for
trouble? (this TFR, if I understand correctly, is from the ground to
5000 AGL). Obviously, this would be a bad place to loose the engine!

Honey, I only have one engine. If I lose it, it's an emergency.
In an emergency, the rules go out the window and I do what it takes.

2)If I fly direct will ATC (flight following) help me stay clear

Not automatically, but if you ask them for help they will.
"BigCenter, does it appear that Cessna 1234 will pass to the
south of the R3404 TFR?" "Cessna 1234, negative, suggest
turn 10 degrees left"

3) If I go via BMG how do I ask for flight following?

Well, if you're not going to go direct, I would take Victor
airways which will be south of BMG. So you say "Cessna 1234
is (present position, present altitude), request flight following
to Mattoon via (your route, ie "V171 to Terre Haute thence direct"
or "via direct Bloomington, direct Mattoon"). If you're
picking up MTO and you want to proceed direct from south of HUF,
just let them know--something like "Huffman approach, Cessna 12345
is going to proceed direct Mattoon from present position". Flight
following isn't navigating for you, letting them know your route
is just for efficiency so they know who to hand you off to and so
forth.

that I just tell them that I am going to MTO via BMG at 7,500. If
this is correct

Um...you're headed west, aren't you? "The East is Odd" FAR 91.159
and all that?

4) I have never used Fligh****ch. How do you know when to call on
122.0 and when to listen on VOR's, etc.

Fligh****ch tries to be continuous coverage above 8,000 ft. Even
if you're lower, I'd try them first. If you don't get them, then
you can try 122.2 or whatever frequency is listed above the box
for a nearby VOR -- but call them "radio" (whatever facility name
is below the box ie "louisville radio"). If there's an R after
the freq then you must listen on the VOR. State whatever VOR
you're nearest to, whoever you call -- ie "Fligh****ch, Cessna
1234 20 SW of Hoosier VOR" or "Terre Haute Radio, Cessna
1234 20 SW, listening on Hoosier VOR"

Also what is the correct
phraseology to ask for a weather update?

"Cessna 1234, Fligh****ch, go ahead" "Fligh****ch, Cessna 1234
is VFR to Mattoon ETA XXXX, request updated weather"

Don't sweat the exact wording. The point is to let them know where
you are when you call so they know which switch to flip, where
you're going and about when you expect to be there, and what you
want (weather).

If you can't get fligh****ch, whose business is wx, just tell
the radio operator you were "unable to contact fligh****ch, request
weather enroute to Mattoon" or something like that.

Have fun and hope this helps,
Sydney