Video of using up ALL of the runway on a wet aero tow

Bruno,

Great video as usual. I have some hours on in the 27 its a beautiful
glider.

My only comment is that I close the brakes immediately the tug is rolling
and there is no risk of running over the rope and keep my hand very close
to the release in case of a wing drop, especially with water and especially
with a X wind!

Believe me its amazing how fast it can start to go round if the wing goes
down and digs in.

This experience cost me no more than a bit of pride but had i had to move
my hand from brakes to release it might have been different.

Looking forward to the next Vid!

Mike

On Jun 13, 5:13*am, Mike Oliver
wrote:
Bruno,

Great video as usual. I have some hours on in the 27 its a beautiful
glider.

My only comment is that *I close the brakes immediately the tug is rolling
and there is no risk of running over the rope and keep my hand very close
to the release in case of a wing drop, especially with water and especially
with a X wind!

Believe me its amazing how fast it can start to go round if the wing goes
down and digs in.

This experience cost me no more than a bit of pride but had i had to move
my hand from brakes to release it might have been different.

Looking forward to the next Vid!

Mike

Actually I find that on the 27 as with many other gliders, half
airbrake substantially improves aileron authority. So I keep half
brake out until I'm really sure I have aileron control, then close and
lock the brakes, move my hand to flaps and transition from flap 2
(which gives best aileron control) to flap 4 and take off. I know
exactly where the release is and how to get there, of course. And
since your hand is on the airbrake, it is impossible to take off with
brakes open.

Also from experience -- one day I closed the spoiler just a little too
soon, lost aileron control, a wing went down and I got to use that
release in front of a whole contest grid! Good thing it was a big
grass field.

Needless to say, making sure the ballast is sloshed so the wings are
balanced, the upwind wing is held a little low, and the wing runner is
an olympic sprinter helps too. I recently couldn't persuade a wing
runner to hold the upwind wing low with predictable consequences.

John Cochrane

Uk Open nationals. Robin Dr400 with a cruise prop + nearly full Nimbos 4t.
Both just off the ground at 3/4 runway when the Robin had a bird stike on
the prop. It got a bit interesting for a few seconds. Well done to both
pilots.

On Jun 13, 6:31*am, John Cochrane
wrote:
Needless to say, making sure the ballast is sloshed so the wings are
balanced, the upwind wing is held a little low, and the wing runner is
an olympic sprinter helps too. I recently couldn't persuade a wing
runner to hold the upwind wing low with predictable consequences.

John,

Do you always takeoff with full ballast? In my ASW19 I always had full
water or no water so a wing low cross wind takeoff was normal. With
the 28 I'm never full and I'd rather be ballanced and stay ballanced
than have the wing low.

If the wing runner really understood what was going on then holding
the wings level until start of the roll and then lowering slightly may
work but I'm usually happy to find a wing runner that understands the
need for balance and a fast run.

What do other do for cross wind takeoffs with partial ballast?

Andy

Discus 2 requires level wings with partial ballast. A lowered wing just thuds into the ground the moment the wing-runner lets go! The nose hook eliminates all but the worst cross-wind problems.

Mike

On 6/13/2012 12:45 PM, Andy wrote:
On Jun 13, 6:31 am, John
wrote:
Needless to say, making sure the ballast is sloshed so the wings are
balanced, the upwind wing is held a little low, and the wing runner is
an olympic sprinter helps too. I recently couldn't persuade a wing
runner to hold the upwind wing low with predictable consequences.

John,

Do you always takeoff with full ballast? In my ASW19 I always had full
water or no water so a wing low cross wind takeoff was normal. With
the 28 I'm never full and I'd rather be ballanced and stay ballanced
than have the wing low.

If the wing runner really understood what was going on then holding
the wings level until start of the roll and then lowering slightly may
work but I'm usually happy to find a wing runner that understands the
need for balance and a fast run.

What do other do for cross wind takeoffs with partial ballast?

Andy

Zuni experience, ~48 gallons max (more than I could ever effectively use),
integral tanks with internal baffles, tailwheel, nose hook, negative
flaps...my experience with (any, mostly partial) ballast was inertia was your
friend in every case/situation...hence my vote in that ship was for max
wingtip clearances. In every case, beginning the run with negative flaps, I
obtained aileron control before any wingtip dropped.

I always instructed my wingrunners to level the wings, remove their hands to
*show* me wing weights were really equalized, and give me the longest run they
could without holding back on the tip. (Once the water was equally
distributed, I preferred to have them rest the wing bottom surface on the flat
of their palm, & explicitly said I did NOT want them wrapping their fingers
around the leading edge...simply run/sprint until the tug outsped their best
effort. Obviously, gusty crosswinds dictated some degree of non-level-ness,
but "close enough to level for practical purposes" was always the goal.)

No connecting of rope until the glider was perfectly aligned with the runway.

Elaborating briefly on the "never had any aileron control issues" claim, that
was true even behind a 180 HP Super Cub at 5300' msl from a 4,400' strip. I
*did* swear off any more fully ballasted T.O.'s from the strip behind that tug
after my only fully ballasted takeoff there...non-existent fully-ballasted
PTTT options prior to being able to execute a downwind return, and WAY too
long 'in the crash zone' below return height.

I should note my ship had the original stalky gear, which put a LOT of weight
on the tailwheel (relative to many 15-meter ships), further making the ship
less prone to weathervane in any event.

YMMV,

Bob W.

John,

Do you always takeoff with full ballast? In my ASW19 I always had full
water or no water so a wing low cross wind takeoff was normal. *With
the 28 I'm never full and I'd rather be ballanced and stay ballanced
than have the wing low.

If the wing runner really understood what was going on then holding
the wings level until start of the roll and then lowering slightly may
work but I'm usually happy to find a wing runner that understands the
need for balance and a fast run.

What do other do for cross wind takeoffs with partial ballast?

Andy

No, I am of the school that puts in exactly the amount of ballast I
want for the day rather than takeoff full and dump. I like to really
know what I have and get the tail tank ballast just right. Dealing
with partially full tanks on a ship with tanks -- baffles -- is not as
much of a problem as it is with bags. Also, there are times when it's
much harder to get off the ground with full water than with half
water.

In 99% of conditions, I agree -- sloshing the tanks so that there is
no pressure is the right thing to do, no matter what the wind. This is
especially true with the most common trouble scenario, high altitude,
hot temperature, contest, weak towplane, cross-downwind but they don't
want to change runways. Hobbs and Tonopah have been memorable. If it's
balanced, you can get past the zone of no control more quickly.

The 1% problem is a really strong crosswind. Then, getting the wing
runner to first slosh and balance, then lower the tip a bit just when
starting the run will help. Lack of aileron authority isn't so much of
a problem, but avoiding a strong wind-driven force in the wrong
direction is. Better to be slightly heavy in the upwind side. Maybe
that just ensures that it's NOT banked in the wrong direction. Mifflin
on a really strong ridge day is an example.

Wing runners often don't realize when wings are level or not --
winglets seem to confuse them, as does a cross-runway slope at the
takeoff point. The difference between gliders with lots of dihedral
(duo) and none (27) confuses them, as they get used to holding the tip
in the same place on their bodies. They won't understand sloshing the
water to get it through the baffles, and the importance of taking off
with no pressure on the wing unless this is explained. And they often
don't understand the importance of running, hard, in a low or downwind
situation with full water. Without pulling or pushing on the tip.
Many get used to what works with no water and headwind at the home
airport, and don't adapt. And it's hard to explain all this, quickly
and politely, on a contest grid.

Last comment -- towplanes. It's common in contests to bring in
towplanes that have been ferrying 2-33's all season long. They take
off and head for the sky while the glider is still on the ground or in
ground effect. This is especially hard for standard class gliders with
inadequate angle of incidence. The maneuver is as explained in someone
else's earlier post -- the tow plane should take off as normal, but
stay low until it has reached tow speed. You know you're headed for
trouble when the chorus of "more speed" erupts from glider after
glider.

John Cochrane

On 6/13/2012 2:18 PM, John Cochrane wrote:

Snip...


Last comment -- towplanes. It's common in contests to bring in
towplanes that have been ferrying 2-33's all season long. They take
off and head for the sky while the glider is still on the ground or in
ground effect. This is especially hard for standard class gliders with
inadequate angle of incidence. The maneuver is as explained in someone
else's earlier post -- the tow plane should take off as normal, but
stay low until it has reached tow speed. You know you're headed for
trouble when the chorus of "more speed" erupts from glider after
glider.

Bemused Question (from a non-contest pilot):

John's complaint about 'not dialed in' contest tuggies is a recurring theme in
my years of reading contest reports, RAS, engaging in BS sessions, etc.

I've long been puzzled why this should be so. Let's assume everything John
posits above is spot-on.

Where's the breakdown? Failure to communicate to tuggies in pre-contest
briefings? Idiot towpilots? Something(s) else?

I realize all it takes is for one tuggie to make one bad tow for it to become:
a) a life-threatening problem; b) majorly gripeworthy, and c) highly 'O
Beer-thirty' worthy. Item a) by itself would seem sufficient justification for
contest organizations to 'work really hard' to ensure the problem doesn't
happen. Further, it's not as if this is a new situation, after all. The
problem certainly shouldn't be endemic, or untreatable? What am I missing?

Just curious...

Bob W.

P.S. I've never seen this same situation even remotely approach 'an endemic
situation' at beaucoup 'semi-watered' camps I've attended over the years,
where volunteer club tuggies are the norm.

On Jun 13, 5:58*pm, BobW wrote:

Please don't change the "Subject" of a thread. It makes the original
thread disappear and can be confusing/irritating to those that
participate by using Gooogle Groups.

thanks

Andy

On Jun 13, 6:58*pm, BobW wrote:
On 6/13/2012 2:18 PM, John Cochrane wrote:

Snip...



Last comment -- towplanes. It's common in contests to bring in
towplanes that have been ferrying 2-33's all season long. They take
off and head for the sky while the glider is still on the ground or in
ground effect. This is especially hard for standard class gliders with
inadequate angle of incidence. The maneuver is as explained in someone
else's earlier post -- the tow plane should take off as normal, but
stay low until it has reached tow speed. You know you're headed for
trouble when the chorus of "more speed" erupts from glider after
glider.

Bemused Question (from a non-contest pilot):

John's complaint about 'not dialed in' contest tuggies is a recurring theme in
my years of reading contest reports, RAS, engaging in BS sessions, etc.

I've long been puzzled why this should be so. Let's assume everything John
posits above is spot-on.

Where's the breakdown? Failure to communicate to tuggies in pre-contest
briefings? Idiot towpilots? Something(s) else?

I realize all it takes is for one tuggie to make one bad tow for it to become:
a) a life-threatening problem; b) majorly gripeworthy, and c) highly 'O
Beer-thirty' worthy. Item a) by itself would seem sufficient justification for
contest organizations to 'work really hard' to ensure the problem doesn't
happen. Further, it's not as if this is a new situation, after all. The
problem certainly shouldn't be endemic, or untreatable? What am I missing?

Just curious...

Bob W.

P.S. I've never seen this same situation even remotely approach 'an endemic
situation' at beaucoup 'semi-watered' camps I've attended over the years,
where volunteer club tuggies are the norm.

Bob,

I think is is mostly a matter of habit with tow pilots. I have had a
few close calls with tow pilots that don't pay attention. When I am
loaded I tell them on the radio and confirm that they know I am full
of water. As Bruno said in one of the origional posts I had a tow
pilot after I told him I was heavy climb to about 50 feet and hold 60
while I sat in the ground and watched the runway being eaten up. I
finally had to release and almost didn't get stopped before the end of
the runway. On the following tow he apologized for not flying faster
for my 30 gallons of water. My response was I had 50 gallons on and
his only response was "oh". More common is for tow pilots that are
used to pulling up in lift to do it with a heavy glider. It is a habit
you can do with light glider, but a loaded glider starts to wallow
like a pig. Very few tow pilots have flown a loaded glider or they
would never fly slow with one.