Tailwheel endorsement

(Skyking)

I took my first lessons in a tailwheel (Aeronca 11AC Chief)
and it took six hours to solo.

I soloed in a constant-speed 210hp fuel-injected
tailwheel Maule after a grand total of 4.4 hrs
during five flights, 1.7 hrs and two flights of
which was spent doing legally-required spin training
in a C-152.

I'm sure plenty have done less :-)

--
ATP http://www.pittspecials.com/images/oz_inv.jpg

"John Harper" wrote

So it took me over 20 hours. A more reasonable time would
probably be about 10 hours.

Something is not reasonable here. For someone who knows how
to fly, two hours is more than enough. Just out of curiosity,
I looked back in my first civilian logbook, and sure enough,
there it was, my first tailwheel flights back in 1962 flying
an Aeronca Champ. Thirty minutes of dual (6 landings) followed
by a one hour solo flight in the pattern. Geeeze....back in
the '40s and early '50s, it was not uncommon to solo a brand
new student in a Cub or Champ in about 10 hours!

Something is REALLY wrong about this story.

Bob Moore
ATP CFI

Two hours seems a bit short to me. I think if I'd done it all with my
acro instructor, over a short time, it would probably have taken
around six. Just getting wheel landings down reliably is at least
a couple of hours. I certainly spent a lot of time flying round the
pattern doing stuff I was doing just fine (three-point landings,
which I was doing fine with after one hour), which is one reason
I got very frustrated with my first instructor.

John


"Robert Moore" wrote in message
. 6...
"John Harper" wrote

So it took me over 20 hours. A more reasonable time would
probably be about 10 hours.

Something is not reasonable here. For someone who knows how
to fly, two hours is more than enough. Just out of curiosity,
I looked back in my first civilian logbook, and sure enough,
there it was, my first tailwheel flights back in 1962 flying
an Aeronca Champ. Thirty minutes of dual (6 landings) followed
by a one hour solo flight in the pattern. Geeeze....back in
the '40s and early '50s, it was not uncommon to solo a brand
new student in a Cub or Champ in about 10 hours!

Something is REALLY wrong about this story.

Bob Moore
ATP CFI

In article 1070822505.275371@sj-nntpcache-5, John Harper
wrote:

Two hours seems a bit short to me. I think if I'd done it all with my
acro instructor, over a short time, it would probably have taken
around six. Just getting wheel landings down reliably is at least
a couple of hours. I certainly spent a lot of time flying round the
pattern doing stuff I was doing just fine (three-point landings,
which I was doing fine with after one hour), which is one reason
I got very frustrated with my first instructor.

I did my initial tailwheel endorsement was in a Piper J-3 Cub,
including spins, in two hours with seven landings.
The second tailwheel aircraft checkout in a Citabria 7GCBC took ten
hours to meet the minimum insurance requirements.

Took me 11 hours to solo, my (now) wife 7.
But we had a couple of advantages.
1. This was from scratch, no previous time at all.
2. Young, still in high school - that's worth a lot
3. My cost was $11 per hour, dual, wet. Solo was $7 per hour, wet.

Today (Dec 7) is the anniversary of my first flying lesson, 1958. So
10 times the price isn't far off.



In article 1070776484.626893@sj-nntpcache-3, "John Harper"
wrote:
It took me far too long to do it, because I had an instructor who was only
available for one week a month and whose technique, I realised late in
the game, was not really right for me. I'm writing the full story for my web
page. So it took me over 20 hours. A more reasonable time would probably
be about 10 hours. IIRC I was paying about $70/hr wet for the Citabria,
plus the instructor who was about $35 until I started working with my
acro instructor who is rather more expensive (and a lot better).

John

"pix" wrote in message
. ..
How much an hour did you pay for the endorsement, John? And how many hours
did it take you to do?

cheers...pix
who is thinking of getting a TW End.
"John Harper" wrote in message
news:1070762767.667218@sj-nntpcache-3...
Well, I finally got my tailwheel endorsement this week, and today was my
first solo tailwheel flight. I took the Decathlon, since I need to
practice
my landings. With my previous instrcutor I was struggling, in the
Citabria,
but my acro instructor took care of me and within three lessons I did
ten
good wheel-landings straight off, so I guess he must be doing something
right.

The Decathlon is a real fun plane to fly. It's great for acro, much
better
than the Grob I've been flying until recently. Landing is a bit of a
challenge, because the symmetrical wing means that lift drops off very
quickly at lower speeds. It hardly floats at all, in fact if you don't
keep
speed up on final it drops in like a brick.

Solo, it has pretty impressive performance. The take off run is over
before
you know it. On LVK's 5000' runway, I just about managed to get it to
pattern altitude before the opposite threshold, using a Vx (58 mph)
climb.

It's fun. It has been a struggle at times, especially when I was trying
to
conquer wheel landings with my first instructor. But in the end it's
been
worth it.

John

John

Last time I gave a TW check out.

Pilot had about 200 hours in 172 size A/C.

Boss had a 180 and said he coud fly if got check out.

First period was three point touch and go and full stop on hard
surface with light winds down the R/W. Included systems
instruction.

2nd flight was three point landings on hard surface with 20 mph cross
wind and review of systems.

3rd flight was three point on gravel an dirt runway and review of
systems.

Signed off.

Next week he borrow the bird from boss and took to Big Bend Park area
in south Texas, landing on a very primitative (out back) strip.

Only shot a couple of wheel landings so he could say he had shot
some.

Big John


On Sat, 6 Dec 2003 21:52:31 -0800, "John Harper"
wrote:

It took me far too long to do it, because I had an instructor who was only
available for one week a month and whose technique, I realised late in
the game, was not really right for me. I'm writing the full story for my web
page. So it took me over 20 hours. A more reasonable time would probably
be about 10 hours. IIRC I was paying about $70/hr wet for the Citabria,
plus the instructor who was about $35 until I started working with my
acro instructor who is rather more expensive (and a lot better).

John

"pix" wrote in message
. ..
How much an hour did you pay for the endorsement, John? And how many hours
did it take you to do?

cheers...pix
who is thinking of getting a TW End.
"John Harper" wrote in message
news:1070762767.667218@sj-nntpcache-3...
Well, I finally got my tailwheel endorsement this week, and today was my
first solo tailwheel flight. I took the Decathlon, since I need to
practice
my landings. With my previous instrcutor I was struggling, in the
Citabria,
but my acro instructor took care of me and within three lessons I did
ten
good wheel-landings straight off, so I guess he must be doing something
right.

The Decathlon is a real fun plane to fly. It's great for acro, much
better
than the Grob I've been flying until recently. Landing is a bit of a
challenge, because the symmetrical wing means that lift drops off very
quickly at lower speeds. It hardly floats at all, in fact if you don't
keep
speed up on final it drops in like a brick.

Solo, it has pretty impressive performance. The take off run is over
before
you know it. On LVK's 5000' runway, I just about managed to get it to
pattern altitude before the opposite threshold, using a Vx (58 mph)
climb.

It's fun. It has been a struggle at times, especially when I was trying
to
conquer wheel landings with my first instructor. But in the end it's
been
worth it.

John

First period was three point touch and go and full stop on hard
surface with light winds down the R/W. Included systems
instruction.

2nd flight was three point landings on hard surface with 20 mph cross
wind and review of systems.

3rd flight was three point on gravel an dirt runway and review of
systems.

Signed off.

Big John,

Sounds like you forgot the wheel landings.

FAR 61.31(i)(1)(ii) requires it unless recommended against by the
manufacturer.

Or perhaps the last tailwheel checkout you gave fell under FAR 61.31(i)(2)

After several thousand hours of tailwheel time and several more under
'instruction given', I've seen some really sharp people show profiecncy in a
very short time. But even the best of them could not demonstrate normal and
crosswind takeoffs and landings, wheel landings and go-around procedures in
the times given by some of the posters on this board.

I'm always amazed at how many tailwheel pilots I've met who say they never
did wheel landings during their training. And of the vast majority who did
do them say, "but we only did one or two".

IMHO, beyond just what's required by the FAA, I feel we do a disservice to
ourselves and mostly to our tailwheel students if we don't do the best we
can at trying to 'mix things up' for them. They need to know, and feel what
it's like to land without enough right rudder, or what happens when it
starts to swerve on them, or applying to much brake to soon, or using
differential braking improperly, etc...

If the student never experiences these things with us on board, what are
their chances of a good out come when it happens in real life?

PJ

--
===============
Reply to:
pj at offairport dot com
===============
Here's to the duck that swam a lake and never lost a feather,
May sometime another year, we all be back together. J.J.W.
=========================================


"Big John" wrote in message
...
John

Last time I gave a TW check out.

Pilot had about 200 hours in 172 size A/C.

Boss had a 180 and said he coud fly if got check out.

First period was three point touch and go and full stop on hard
surface with light winds down the R/W. Included systems
instruction.

2nd flight was three point landings on hard surface with 20 mph cross
wind and review of systems.

3rd flight was three point on gravel an dirt runway and review of
systems.

Signed off.

Next week he borrow the bird from boss and took to Big Bend Park area
in south Texas, landing on a very primitative (out back) strip.

Only shot a couple of wheel landings so he could say he had shot
some.

Big John


On Sat, 6 Dec 2003 21:52:31 -0800, "John Harper"
wrote:

It took me far too long to do it, because I had an instructor who was
only
available for one week a month and whose technique, I realised late in
the game, was not really right for me. I'm writing the full story for my
web
page. So it took me over 20 hours. A more reasonable time would probably
be about 10 hours. IIRC I was paying about $70/hr wet for the Citabria,
plus the instructor who was about $35 until I started working with my
acro instructor who is rather more expensive (and a lot better).

John

"pix" wrote in message
. ..
How much an hour did you pay for the endorsement, John? And how many
hours
did it take you to do?

cheers...pix
who is thinking of getting a TW End.
"John Harper" wrote in message
news:1070762767.667218@sj-nntpcache-3...
Well, I finally got my tailwheel endorsement this week, and today was
my
first solo tailwheel flight. I took the Decathlon, since I need to
practice
my landings. With my previous instrcutor I was struggling, in the
Citabria,
but my acro instructor took care of me and within three lessons I did
ten
good wheel-landings straight off, so I guess he must be doing
something
right.

The Decathlon is a real fun plane to fly. It's great for acro, much
better
than the Grob I've been flying until recently. Landing is a bit of a
challenge, because the symmetrical wing means that lift drops off
very
quickly at lower speeds. It hardly floats at all, in fact if you
don't
keep
speed up on final it drops in like a brick.

Solo, it has pretty impressive performance. The take off run is over
before
you know it. On LVK's 5000' runway, I just about managed to get it to
pattern altitude before the opposite threshold, using a Vx (58 mph)
climb.

It's fun. It has been a struggle at times, especially when I was
trying
to
conquer wheel landings with my first instructor. But in the end it's
been
worth it.

John

PJ

Re-read my original post. You clipped in your post the wheel comment I
made originally.

Comment on landings.

Wheel landings.

Two basic types of wheel landings.

1. High airspeed on final and when over the runway and flared stick it
on the ground with lots of forward stick. This puts the prop near the
ground and the tail way up in the air.

If you have a short R/W (out back) there is a good chance it is not
long enough to make that kind of a wheel landing.

As bird slows down you have to transition from the main gear to a
three point attitude to get the tail wheel on the ground and with a
cross wind this takes proficiency that a flight once or twice a month
with one landing each will not give even if both are wheel landings..

2. Normal final air speed and normal flare and hold bird off in a tail
low (not three point ) attitude . As main gear touches release the
back pressure on stick (maybe add a 'little' forward stick) and roll
down the R/W on main gear using rudder for directional control.

Same problems transitioning from main wheels to three point.

Three point landing.

Three point touch down at minimum speed (bird stalled). Won't bounce
back in air like a wheel landing can do if forward stick is not
applied correctly.

During and after three point touch down you hold the stick full back
all the time which holds the tail wheel firmly on the ground and helps
prevent ground loops (that happen oftener in wheel landings).

I've clipped some of my text but believe you will get the idea of my
years of tail wheel flying in all kinds of WX, R/W and aircraft.

errata

If you have floats do you try to stick the floats on or do you try to
touch down in a tail low attitude?

My '51 Group had one Sq who made all wheel landings. My Sq made three
point. We had half the landing accidents the other Sq had.

I wonder if any of the AK jocks are reading this post and can comment
on wheel landings in AK?

Big John


On Mon, 8 Dec 2003 13:51:08 -0800, "PJ" pj at off airport dot com
wrote:

First period was three point touch and go and full stop on hard
surface with light winds down the R/W. Included systems
instruction.

2nd flight was three point landings on hard surface with 20 mph cross
wind and review of systems.

3rd flight was three point on gravel an dirt runway and review of
systems.

Signed off.

Big John,

Sounds like you forgot the wheel landings.

FAR 61.31(i)(1)(ii) requires it unless recommended against by the
manufacturer.

Or perhaps the last tailwheel checkout you gave fell under FAR 61.31(i)(2)

After several thousand hours of tailwheel time and several more under
'instruction given', I've seen some really sharp people show profiecncy in a
very short time. But even the best of them could not demonstrate normal and
crosswind takeoffs and landings, wheel landings and go-around procedures in
the times given by some of the posters on this board.

I'm always amazed at how many tailwheel pilots I've met who say they never
did wheel landings during their training. And of the vast majority who did
do them say, "but we only did one or two".

IMHO, beyond just what's required by the FAA, I feel we do a disservice to
ourselves and mostly to our tailwheel students if we don't do the best we
can at trying to 'mix things up' for them. They need to know, and feel what
it's like to land without enough right rudder, or what happens when it
starts to swerve on them, or applying to much brake to soon, or using
differential braking improperly, etc...

If the student never experiences these things with us on board, what are
their chances of a good out come when it happens in real life?

PJ

I'm always amazed at how many tailwheel pilots I've met who say they never
did wheel landings during their training. And of the vast majority who did
do them say, "but we only did one or two".

Harvey Plourde addresses this in "The Compleat Taildragger Pilot". He
sketches the scene where the typical checkout ends with the instructor
saying something like "You get the idea; practice it some time when
there's no cross-wind," signing the endorsement, then moving to
another state or changing his name.

He also notes that it may be some comfort to the student who is
sweating out his first wheelie to know that the instructor is even
more terrified. (It is, after all, the instructor's insurance policy
that is on the line. And in the Cub, the instructor is usually in the
front seat. I often wondered what it is like to teach somebody you
can't see! Shucks, the student could have fainted, for all the
instructor knows.)

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

FMI, I've posted FAQs on the tailwheel endorsement at
http://www.richstowell.com/dragger.htm

Rich
http://www.richstowell.com


"pix" wrote in message .. .
How much an hour did you pay for the endorsement, John? And how many hours
did it take you to do?

cheers...pix
who is thinking of getting a TW End.
"John Harper" wrote in message
news:1070762767.667218@sj-nntpcache-3...
Well, I finally got my tailwheel endorsement this week, and today was my
first solo tailwheel flight. I took the Decathlon, since I need to
practice
my landings. With my previous instrcutor I was struggling, in the
Citabria,
but my acro instructor took care of me and within three lessons I did ten
good wheel-landings straight off, so I guess he must be doing something
right.

The Decathlon is a real fun plane to fly. It's great for acro, much better
than the Grob I've been flying until recently. Landing is a bit of a
challenge, because the symmetrical wing means that lift drops off very
quickly at lower speeds. It hardly floats at all, in fact if you don't
keep
speed up on final it drops in like a brick.

Solo, it has pretty impressive performance. The take off run is over
before
you know it. On LVK's 5000' runway, I just about managed to get it to
pattern altitude before the opposite threshold, using a Vx (58 mph) climb.

It's fun. It has been a struggle at times, especially when I was trying to
conquer wheel landings with my first instructor. But in the end it's been
worth it.

John