WGC2012 Uvalde Scoring

On Tuesday, 14 August 2012 16:32:02 UTC-5, (unknown) wrote:
On Tuesday, August 14, 2012 4:57:31 PM UTC-4, Tony wrote:

On Tuesday, August 14, 2012 3:51:22 PM UTC-5, BobD wrote: On Tuesday, August 14, 2012 3:26:02 PM UTC-5, soartech wrote: Evan says: I see a 500' zoomie. What is a "zoomie" and what's so bad about it? I'm assuming he finished 500' below the finish cylinder edge and zoomed up to kill speed and gain altitude for getting to the pattern. In previous tasks they've declared a 15k cylinder with a 3,000ft minimum altitude base. They do this because weather had forecasted a gust front from approaching T-storms to the north of Uvalde. They want to give the pilot the option to get a valid finish then break off a glide to the airport should the gusts get strong. The breakoff would then be a decision to landout or go to another air strip. Hitting the 15k cylinder and keeping yourself at 3,000agl+ is tricky as most have never done final glides to a target like that. The "zoomie" is dangerous at any finish cylinder because you're zooming up at what might be the majority of gliders finishing above the floor limit. Hence the penalty points. the dangerous action was at 15:24, about 14 minutes after he started.



This is consistent with a very agressive pull up into a thermal, likely occupied by a gaggle, and triggering a safety complaint, followed by appropriate invesygation and review.

Speculation on my part.

Bet this calms things down quick

UH

The discussion so far has no identified the REAL problem. I encourage you to download the flight, define the task and have all flight parameters defined and figure out the serious penalty, which is in fact a zero for the day, because it is not the first time this pilot has done this infraction during the competition, including practice days.

yes I know the answer but you serious RAS folks should be able to figure this out on your own.

Ron Gleason

Użytkownik Ron Gleason napisał:

The discussion so far has no identified the REAL problem. I encourage you to download the flight, define the task and have all flight parameters defined and figure out the serious penalty, which is in fact a zero for the day, because it is not the first time this pilot has done this infraction during the competition, including practice days.

yes I know the answer but you serious RAS folks should be able to figure this out on your own.
"I know but I won't tell" does not help to build safety culture. I'm
watching the log (downloaded from Soaringspot) and all I can see is a
"zoomie" at 15:24:06. Can't tell if there was a near-miss without
watching all files simultaneously.

I also can't find any sporting flaw which would zero the day.

--
WojtuÅ›

On Tuesday, 14 August 2012 18:31:17 UTC-5, Wojciech Scigala wrote:
Użytkownik Ron Gleason napisał:



The discussion so far has no identified the REAL problem. I encourage you to download the flight, define the task and have all flight parameters defined and figure out the serious penalty, which is in fact a zero for the day, because it is not the first time this pilot has done this infraction during the competition, including practice days.



yes I know the answer but you serious RAS folks should be able to figure this out on your own.

"I know but I won't tell" does not help to build safety culture. I'm

watching the log (downloaded from Soaringspot) and all I can see is a

"zoomie" at 15:24:06. Can't tell if there was a near-miss without

watching all files simultaneously.



I also can't find any sporting flaw which would zero the day.



--

WojtuÅ›

There was an airspace violation. Annex A states these penalties are cumulative. 2nd occurrence for this pilot.

Shame on RAS pilots for not figuring this out

Ron

On Aug 14, 5:35*pm, Ron Gleason wrote:
On Tuesday, 14 August 2012 16:32:02 UTC-5, (unknown) *wrote:
On Tuesday, August 14, 2012 4:57:31 PM UTC-4, Tony wrote:

On Tuesday, August 14, 2012 3:51:22 PM UTC-5, BobD wrote: On Tuesday, August 14, 2012 3:26:02 PM UTC-5, soartech wrote: Evan says: I see a 500' zoomie. What is a "zoomie" and what's so bad about it? I'm assuming he finished 500' below the finish cylinder edge and zoomed up to kill speed and gain altitude for getting to the pattern. In previous tasks they've declared a 15k cylinder with a 3,000ft minimum altitude base. They do this because weather had forecasted a gust front from approaching T-storms to the north of Uvalde. They want to give the pilot the option to get a valid finish then break off a glide to the airport should the gusts get strong. The breakoff would then be a decision to landout or go to another air strip. Hitting the 15k cylinder and keeping yourself at 3,000agl+ is tricky as most have never done final glides to a target like that. The "zoomie" is dangerous at any finish cylinder because you're zooming up at what might be the majority of gliders finishing above the floor limit. Hence the penalty points. the dangerous action was at 15:24, about 14 minutes after he started.

This is consistent with a very agressive pull up into a thermal, likely occupied by a gaggle, and triggering a safety complaint, followed by appropriate invesygation and review.

Speculation on my part.

Bet this calms things down quick

UH

The discussion so far has no identified the REAL problem. *I encourage you to download the flight, define the task and have all flight parameters defined and figure out the serious penalty, which is in fact a zero for the day, because it is not the first time this pilot has done this infraction during the competition, including practice days.

yes I know the answer but you serious RAS folks should be able to figure this out on your own.

Ron Gleason

Ron:
Why all the secrecy? Surely this is public information at WGC.

On Aug 14, 9:18*pm, John Cochrane
wrote:
On Aug 14, 5:35*pm, Ron Gleason wrote:





On Tuesday, 14 August 2012 16:32:02 UTC-5, (unknown) *wrote:
On Tuesday, August 14, 2012 4:57:31 PM UTC-4, Tony wrote:

On Tuesday, August 14, 2012 3:51:22 PM UTC-5, BobD wrote: On Tuesday, August 14, 2012 3:26:02 PM UTC-5, soartech wrote: Evan says: I see a 500' zoomie. What is a "zoomie" and what's so bad about it? I'm assuming he finished 500' below the finish cylinder edge and zoomed up to kill speed and gain altitude for getting to the pattern. In previous tasks they've declared a 15k cylinder with a 3,000ft minimum altitude base.. They do this because weather had forecasted a gust front from approaching T-storms to the north of Uvalde. They want to give the pilot the option to get a valid finish then break off a glide to the airport should the gusts get strong. The breakoff would then be a decision to landout or go to another air strip. Hitting the 15k cylinder and keeping yourself at 3,000agl+ is tricky as most have never done final glides to a target like that. The "zoomie" is dangerous at any finish cylinder because you're zooming up at what might be the majority of gliders finishing above the floor limit. Hence the penalty points. the dangerous action was at 15:24, about 14 minutes after he started.

This is consistent with a very agressive pull up into a thermal, likely occupied by a gaggle, and triggering a safety complaint, followed by appropriate invesygation and review.

Speculation on my part.

Bet this calms things down quick

UH

The discussion so far has no identified the REAL problem. *I encourage you to download the flight, define the task and have all flight parameters defined and figure out the serious penalty, which is in fact a zero for the day, because it is not the first time this pilot has done this infraction during the competition, including practice days.

yes I know the answer but you serious RAS folks should be able to figure this out on your own.

Ron Gleason

Ron:
Why all the secrecy? Surely this is public information at WGC.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Maybe the process of solving the problem on our own helps consolidate
the point in our brain rather than just being spoon-fed?

On Tuesday, August 14, 2012 5:08:13 PM UTC-7, Ron Gleason wrote:
On Tuesday, 14 August 2012 18:31:17 UTC-5, Wojciech Scigala wrote:

Użytkownik Ron Gleason napisał:







The discussion so far has no identified the REAL problem. I encourage you to download the flight, define the task and have all flight parameters defined and figure out the serious penalty, which is in fact a zero for the day, because it is not the first time this pilot has done this infraction during the competition, including practice days.







yes I know the answer but you serious RAS folks should be able to figure this out on your own.



"I know but I won't tell" does not help to build safety culture. I'm



watching the log (downloaded from Soaringspot) and all I can see is a



"zoomie" at 15:24:06. Can't tell if there was a near-miss without



watching all files simultaneously.







I also can't find any sporting flaw which would zero the day.







--



WojtuÅ›



There was an airspace violation. Annex A states these penalties are cumulative. 2nd occurrence for this pilot.



Shame on RAS pilots for not figuring this out



Ron

I am lost, if something happened at 15:24:06 with RB I am missing what it was. No airspace there to bust, just MOAs.

Darryl

On Tuesday, August 14, 2012 9:36:04 PM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Tuesday, August 14, 2012 5:08:13 PM UTC-7, Ron Gleason wrote:

On Tuesday, 14 August 2012 18:31:17 UTC-5, Wojciech Scigala wrote:



Użytkownik Ron Gleason napisał:















The discussion so far has no identified the REAL problem. I encourage you to download the flight, define the task and have all flight parameters defined and figure out the serious penalty, which is in fact a zero for the day, because it is not the first time this pilot has done this infraction during the competition, including practice days.















yes I know the answer but you serious RAS folks should be able to figure this out on your own.







"I know but I won't tell" does not help to build safety culture. I'm







watching the log (downloaded from Soaringspot) and all I can see is a







"zoomie" at 15:24:06. Can't tell if there was a near-miss without







watching all files simultaneously.















I also can't find any sporting flaw which would zero the day.















--







WojtuÅ›







There was an airspace violation. Annex A states these penalties are cumulative. 2nd occurrence for this pilot.







Shame on RAS pilots for not figuring this out







Ron



I am lost, if something happened at 15:24:06 with RB I am missing what it was. No airspace there to bust, just MOAs.



Darryl

the contest is using an airspace file that is available from the turnpoint exchange. part of the MOA is prohibited airspace during the week and the pilot in question clipped the corner of it between circle #1 and circle #2.

I am lost, if something happened at 15:24:06 with RB I am missing what it was. No airspace there to bust, just MOAs.



Darryl

I thought that too except I found this interesting about open class day 8 task: "About the open class task:
After 180 km. the pilots enter the cylinder of Toledo. The CENTER of this cylinder is a forbidden airspace are. Pilots were warned to keep an eye on that.The next leg is 79 km. and then back over 112 km.
370 km. [min.299km. max 447 km] and time 2.30"

JP

On Tuesday, August 14, 2012 10:20:02 PM UTC-5, Jp Stewart wrote:
I am lost, if something happened at 15:24:06 with RB I am missing what it was. No airspace there to bust, just MOAs.







Darryl



I thought that too except I found this interesting about open class day 8 task: "About the open class task:

After 180 km. the pilots enter the cylinder of Toledo. The CENTER of this cylinder is a forbidden airspace are. Pilots were warned to keep an eye on that.The next leg is 79 km. and then back over 112 km.

370 km. [min.299km. max 447 km] and time 2.30"



JP

It was actually Laredo, and 18 meter had a similar task last week where the circle was really a donut, except that Laredo is on the Mexican border so the donut is really about a half donut.

On Tuesday, August 14, 2012 8:23:39 PM UTC-7, Tony wrote:
On Tuesday, August 14, 2012 10:20:02 PM UTC-5, Jp Stewart wrote:

I am lost, if something happened at 15:24:06 with RB I am missing what it was. No airspace there to bust, just MOAs.















Darryl







I thought that too except I found this interesting about open class day 8 task: "About the open class task:



After 180 km. the pilots enter the cylinder of Toledo. The CENTER of this cylinder is a forbidden airspace are. Pilots were warned to keep an eye on that.The next leg is 79 km. and then back over 112 km.



370 km. [min.299km. max 447 km] and time 2.30"







JP



It was actually Laredo, and 18 meter had a similar task last week where the circle was really a donut, except that Laredo is on the Mexican border so the donut is really about a half donut.


This is all clear as mud.

It was Laredo what? He did not get close to the LOREDO CLASS D. You mean the CRYSTAL MOA centered on Laredo?

What exact time (nearest second) CDST did the violation occur and in what exact named airspace volume (proper FAA name please)? The score sheet says 15:24:06 (presumably CDST). But nothing is occurring exactly at that time. Around 15:19:46 CDST the glider climbs into the LAUGHLIN 2 MOA briefly (base of which is 7,001' MSL, but is just an MOA and therefore not an airspace violation per-se). Around 15:25:34 the glider passes from under LAUGHLIN 2 MOA to under LAUGLIN 3 MOA, around 16:00:12 the glider climbs though 6,000' into LAUGLIN 3 MOA. These are all just MOAs was there a NOTAM/TFR out modifying these or was additional contest airspace restrictions that are not in the airspace files or not FAA NOTAMed? it would really help to make that info available publicly.

See it would just be easir to give a nice precise explanatory answer instead of playing guessing games. Even better if the scorer (yes I know he's damn busy) had made clear what the penalty was and when it actually occurred.

Darryl