PowerFlarm BRICK range issues - are we alone????

On Monday, October 1, 2012 11:36:26 AM UTC-7, (unknown) wrote:
On Monday, October 1, 2012 11:56:14 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:

Three members at my club (self included) have installed PowerFlarm bricks recently. We carefully read and have complied with the antenna separation requirements in the manual. As is stands currently, the maximum xperienced communication range (Flarm to Flarm) is about 2.2 miles and it frequently drops out around 1.3-1.5 miles. Regarding PCAS operation, the only alert I have received using the PowerFlarm Brick has been the towplane at a distance of about 1000-1500 feet lateraly, same altitude. At the same time my Zaon PCAS alerted to the same towplane at a range of 2+ miles and 1000 feet below. The three gliders are a Ventus 1, Discus 2, and a PIK. All three seem to be experiencing the same issues with very poor range. Emails to FLARM have seemed to fall on deaf ears. We're curious if we're the only ones or if others are also seeing the same issues with BRICKS. We've heard plenty from portable users who are reporting 6+ miles Flarm to Flarm and PCAS alerts approaching 5 miles. If changes to the installation will fix this, great! We just need to know what to change. The US dealer has seen pics of our installation and says the antenna installations look good. They are all on the top of the glare shields so should be excellent visibility. We'd like this to work, but if there is no option to improve the performance then sending the stuff back is certainly on the table. More testing this weekend, but at the moment it's not looking good.



It would seem that the range you are getting is good enough to provide the anti-collision properties that this device is intended to provide, at least glider to glider. Seeing other gliders for tactical purposes is what you get beyond the range that you are reporting. Nice to have, but not getting this would not seem to be a reason to pull the plug on the use of it in your glider.

I use a single element Flarm antenna on my glare shield in my '27 and see gliders to about 4 miles or so. I don't have any feedback on PCAS function..

FWIW

UH

I think there is a consensus on 3 issues:
1 - Poor PCAS performance.
2 - Poor flarm performance in portables, but not bricks. Most bricks I know of getting 2-3 miles which is plenty enough for collision avoidance if you pay attention immediately.
3 - The support and manuals sucks.

None of the above should be a reason to delay purchase or return the unit. I am confident they will all get addressed in the near future.

Ramy

On Monday, October 1, 2012 1:43:20 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
I think there is a consensus on 3 issues:

1 - Poor PCAS performance.

Will be fixed with firmware update.

2 - Poor flarm performance in portables, but not bricks.
Most bricks I know of getting 2-3 miles which is plenty enough
for collision avoidance if you pay attention immediately.

US portables will be recalled to make FLARM hardware equivalent to Bricks (which have more than sufficient range for collision avoidance)

3 - The support and manuals sucks.
Point taken.

Expect to see action on all three points before the end of November.
FLARM

US portables will be recalled to make FLARM hardware equivalent to Bricks (which have more than sufficient range for collision avoidance)

when and where will units be sent?

anticipated turn-around time?

would like to have my PF back in time for U.S. 2013 spring season.

Brad

On Oct 2, 10:10*am, FLARM wrote:

2 - Poor flarm performance in portables, but not bricks.
* * Most bricks I know of getting 2-3 miles which is plenty enough
* * for collision avoidance if you pay attention immediately.

US portables will be recalled to make FLARM hardware equivalent to Bricks (which have more than sufficient range for collision avoidance)

My recollection is that all Portables were intended to be modified by
the addiition of rf filtering that reduced out of band interference.
After that modification the portables were claimed to have good range
performance. We were also told that this modification had been made
in all fielded portables.

Now we are being told that, although there are multiple reports of
inadequate range for the brick, that the portable will be modifed to
have hardware equivalent to the brick.

I am the only one that finds this somewhat inconsistent?

Would FLARM please explain how the units are different in term of RF
design and performance. Would FLARM also please clarify whether the
recall is intended to increase the performance of the portable, or to
degrade it to that of the brick.


GY

On Tuesday, October 2, 2012 4:41:53 PM UTC-7, Andy wrote:
US portables will be recalled to make FLARM hardware equivalent to Bricks (which have more than sufficient range for collision avoidance)


My recollection is that all Portables were intended to be modified by
the addiition of rf filtering that reduced out of band interference.
After that modification the portables were claimed to have good range
performance. We were also told that this modification had been made
in all fielded portables.

Now we are being told that, although there are multiple reports of
inadequate range for the brick, that the portable will be modifed to
have hardware equivalent to the brick.

I am the only one that finds this somewhat inconsistent?

There are two completely independent circuits in PowerFLARM:

FLARM RF transceiver:
'Bricks' have a bandpass filter to reduce 'out of band' signals.
All 'Bricks' report a more than adequate range for FLARM signals.

'Portables' do not have that filter and will be recalled to add it.
They will then have a FLARM RF circuit equivalent to the one on the 'Bricks'


PCAS/ADS-B receiver:
Both 'Portable' and 'Brick' seem to show a reduced range in some installations.
This is not a circuit issue as the same circuit is capable of receiving ADS-B signals from 20+ miles away, even in the installations that currently show PCAS range issues.
Processing PCAS (especially Mode C transponder signals) is pretty tricky. You will find many threads about this on R.A.S and elsewhere (not by us).
We will continue to improve PCAS performance and this can and will be done in software. These performance updates are, of course, free.

FLARM

On Monday, October 1, 2012 8:56:14 AM UTC-7, Mark wrote:
Three members at my club (self included) have installed PowerFlarm bricks recently. We carefully read and have complied with the antenna separation requirements in the manual. As is stands currently, the maximum xperienced communication range (Flarm to Flarm) is about 2.2 miles and it frequently drops out around 1.3-1.5 miles. Regarding PCAS operation, the only alert I have received using the PowerFlarm Brick has been the towplane at a distance of about 1000-1500 feet lateraly, same altitude. At the same time my Zaon PCAS alerted to the same towplane at a range of 2+ miles and 1000 feet below. The three gliders are a Ventus 1, Discus 2, and a PIK. All three seem to be experiencing the same issues with very poor range. Emails to FLARM have seemed to fall on deaf ears. We're curious if we're the only ones or if others are also seeing the same issues with BRICKS. We've heard plenty from portable users who are reporting 6+ miles Flarm to Flarm and PCAS alerts approaching 5 miles. If changes to the installation will fix this, great! We just need to know what to change. The US dealer has seen pics of our installation and says the antenna installations look good. They are all on the top of the glare shields so should be excellent visibility. We'd like this to work, but if there is no option to improve the performance then sending the stuff back is certainly on the table. More testing this weekend, but at the moment it's not looking good.

I am getting 4 to 6 nm with the brick. Other gliders also have the brick.
I am not using the Butterfly displays, PowerFlarm to LX Navigation 1606 - Craggy Aero Ultimate Le,

I have a 1/2 wave Flarm A antenna and the dipole Flarm B antenna. Ventus b 1/2 wave on the inst panel cover and dipole in the nose.

You can see the antenna on YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1i0IVkHUnWU

Antennas:

http://www.craggyaero.com/cables_&_antennas.htm

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

Discus 2b owner here. I have the brick installed with the supplied dipole antennas on the glare shield in "other than an optimal placement" and I have no issues seeing gliders out to 6nm. At times, they do drop out, but are reacquired relatively quickly. Circling tilted carbon fiber tends to block the signal at times. Also, as far as I can tell, performance has not changed with the new firmware update. I have flown with Richard (Craggy Aero) and he sees me without issue as I see him. The only ADSB contact I remember was an airliner flying overhead at altitude. As far as I can tell, the units are performing as advertised. If you have range issues, I'm guessing it's not the electronic architecture. Now if they could just get the .IGC file going.....

Thanks for the reply. This is exactly what I was looking for. There are some people that are getting 6nm range on their units. That's a lot better than 1.5nm if you're trying to catch up with a buddy. The question is how do I get to that kind of range?

Separately it seems I'm not alone with the PCAS range. Others are also reporting PCAS range of well under 1 mile. The product which they are delivering is not meeting a reasonable expectation of performance (particularly in PCAS) for which they and their dealers are advertising. Sub 1 mile PCAS range is basically worthless.

My antenna installation is very similar to the one someone else posted and you can see a pic here...

http://thezivleys.com/gliderstuff/flarmantennas.gif




Discus 2b owner here. I have the brick installed with the supplied dipole antennas on the glare shield in "other than an optimal placement" and I have no issues seeing gliders out to 6nm.

On Tuesday, October 2, 2012 8:17:31 AM UTC-4, (unknown) wrote:
Thanks for the reply. This is exactly what I was looking for. There are some people that are getting 6nm range on their units. That's a lot better than 1.5nm if you're trying to catch up with a buddy. The question is how do I get to that kind of range? Separately it seems I'm not alone with the PCAS range. Others are also reporting PCAS range of well under 1 mile. The product which they are delivering is not meeting a reasonable expectation of performance (particularly in PCAS) for which they and their dealers are advertising. Sub 1 mile PCAS range is basically worthless. My antenna installation is very similar to the one someone else posted and you can see a pic here... http://thezivleys.com/gliderstuff/flarmantennas.gif Discus 2b owner here. I have the brick installed with the supplied dipole antennas on the glare shield in "other than an optimal placement" and I have no issues seeing gliders out to 6nm.

Unless it has a plastic case, you compass is not helping the situation. PF wants NO metal above the plane antennas are mounted on.
UH

While I doubt that the compass is causing issues, I'm actually going to remove it next flight to test that theory.

Further, if you look at pages 3 and 5 of the antenna mounting guide

http://powerflarm.us/wp-content/uplo..._ANTENNAS1.pdf

I draw your attention to the two pictures with the big Green circle with the check mark in them. In both, they have a compass not far from the Flarm antenna in very much the same configuration. Further, there is no specific mention of compass separation in the manual.

I'm going to test without the compass, but I really doubt this will be an issue. One other pilot in our group already flew without a compass and no better luck on his end either.

Mark


Unless it has a plastic case, you compass is not helping the situation. PF wants NO metal above the plane antennas are mounted on.

UH