U.S. glider operations fuel prices

On Tuesday, November 20, 2012 2:23:57 PM UTC-7, John Cochrane wrote:
On Nov 20, 12:30*pm, Soarin Again wrote:

I recently read a a blurb on the SSA home page that claims the following.



High AVGAS prices ($6-$13/gal currently) are hurting aero tow operations.

Ultimately, US soaring will have to adopt fuel efficient winch launch to

keep the sport affordable





Boy, there is a lot of editorial mixed up with facts there!



Our club flies out of a 1600' runway. Winch would mean buying $1

million or more of land.



Winch means more people. OK, if you have people wiling to work for

free (or not count the actual cost of their time) good for you. If

we're talking about a commercial operation, it's not at all clear that

two more employees at x per hour is cost effective.



John Cochrane

Sorry, John. With respect, it's your facts are mixed up. Unless you're considering wing-down takeoffs, the minimum winch crew is exactly the same as aero tow - pilot, winch operator, wing runner. The wing runner or winch operator can retrieve the rope. Unlike aero tow, more people can be used effectively with winch launch but they're not absolutely necessary.

As for your airfield, well that's your situation. Others have different situations. And, the economics very much favor the winch.

Oh yes, about airport land. I'll bet way back when the 1600' was bought, someone suggested buying more land for a longer runway. The response was probably, "No way - that would mean buy $5,000 or more of land." Today, that looks like it would have been a bargain. In 50 years, $1 million will look like a bargain.

On Tuesday, November 20, 2012 11:30:04 AM UTC-7, soarin wrote:
I recently read a a blurb on the SSA home page that claims the following.



High AVGAS prices ($6-$13/gal currently) are hurting aero tow operations.

Ultimately, US soaring will have to adopt fuel efficient winch launch to

keep the sport affordable



Locally here in Ca we currently pay $5.60 per gal 100LL and there is an

airport 20 miles away charging $5.21 per gal. An online search of current

fuel prices shows that throughout the six continental U.S. regions the

average price per gal 100LL is between $5.43 and $5.76. Is anyone aware of

any U.S. fixed glider operations paying $13 per gallon, or for that matter

any fixed operations that are paying in excess of $7?



The Germans did not have tow planes when they were allowed to fly again after WWII. They needed to use winches to fly. So they found the infrastructures for them. The Doernberg in Germany works great with winches but the terrain is not good for tow planes. I operated a Com operation for decades with 2 Tugs, have thousands of hours in them, always preferred to fly the glider. Not much is mentioned about maintenance,insurance, not so good tow pilots?

THE FUTURE IS SELF LAUNCH AND WINCHING IMHO AND THERE MAY HAVE TO BE IDEAL VENUES found FOR THEM!

For training, winching is best and one may have to go out to the prairie. Self launching can be done at busy airports. Sometimes I am cleared for take off behind two jets. The Germans are/were using their teenagers for Winch and retrieve work. They especially love to drive the retrieve car, since they are not allowed to drive yet on the road etc etc. But those customs may end?
Diesel winches...Boutique gas? Self Launch gliders? A lot of changes are comming! Most of us in the US do not even know what a good winch looks like.
There are so many contrasts. Europeans now fly in Namibia with Dozens of Self launchers, and some of their buddies are waiting for spring up north so they
can make their 10 flights a year off winches that may not last more than 15 minutes each!

Dieter
Gliders Of Aspen Inc.

On Wednesday, November 28, 2012 11:25:03 AM UTC-7, Dieter B wrote:
On Tuesday, November 20, 2012 11:30:04 AM UTC-7, soarin wrote:

I recently read a a blurb on the SSA home page that claims the following.







High AVGAS prices ($6-$13/gal currently) are hurting aero tow operations.



Ultimately, US soaring will have to adopt fuel efficient winch launch to



keep the sport affordable







Locally here in Ca we currently pay $5.60 per gal 100LL and there is an



airport 20 miles away charging $5.21 per gal. An online search of current



fuel prices shows that throughout the six continental U.S. regions the



average price per gal 100LL is between $5.43 and $5.76. Is anyone aware of



any U.S. fixed glider operations paying $13 per gallon, or for that matter



any fixed operations that are paying in excess of $7?







The Germans did not have tow planes when they were allowed to fly again after WWII. They needed to use winches to fly. So they found the infrastructures for them. The Doernberg in Germany works great with winches but the terrain is not good for tow planes. I operated a Com operation for decades with 2 Tugs, have thousands of hours in them, always preferred to fly the glider. Not much is mentioned about maintenance,insurance, not so good tow pilots?



THE FUTURE IS SELF LAUNCH AND WINCHING IMHO AND THERE MAY HAVE TO BE IDEAL VENUES found FOR THEM!



For training, winching is best and one may have to go out to the prairie. Self launching can be done at busy airports. Sometimes I am cleared for take off behind two jets. The Germans are/were using their teenagers for Winch and retrieve work. They especially love to drive the retrieve car, since they are not allowed to drive yet on the road etc etc. But those customs may end?

Diesel winches...Boutique gas? Self Launch gliders? A lot of changes are comming! Most of us in the US do not even know what a good winch looks like..

There are so many contrasts. Europeans now fly in Namibia with Dozens of Self launchers, and some of their buddies are waiting for spring up north so they

can make their 10 flights a year off winches that may not last more than 15 minutes each!



Dieter

Gliders Of Aspen Inc.

Dieter, you're right as usual. However, I think the self-launch community and the winch launch community will go different directions. Self-launcher's will tend to operate as individuals outside of clubs and commercial operations much as airplane owners do while winches will pull club membership closer together as they increasingly depend on each other.

On Tuesday, November 20, 2012 11:30:04 AM UTC-7, soarin wrote:
I recently read a a blurb on the SSA home page that claims the following.



High AVGAS prices ($6-$13/gal currently) are hurting aero tow operations.

Ultimately, US soaring will have to adopt fuel efficient winch launch to

keep the sport affordable



Locally here in Ca we currently pay $5.60 per gal 100LL and there is an

airport 20 miles away charging $5.21 per gal. An online search of current

fuel prices shows that throughout the six continental U.S. regions the

average price per gal 100LL is between $5.43 and $5.76. Is anyone aware of

any U.S. fixed glider operations paying $13 per gallon, or for that matter

any fixed operations that are paying in excess of $7?

I don't think anyone is talking about winches replacing 100% of aero tows. Each have their place.

Let's consider training for a moment. With aero tows getting more and more expensive, training tends to proceed with the minimum possible number of tows as instructors try to minimize costs for their students.

We may be paying a price for that in the number of landing accidents with people getting Private licenses with 40 - 60 total landings. (And some licensed pilots going for years with no more than 20 landings a year.)With the low costs of winch launch, instructors can really drill their students on landings and the rest of us can stay sharp.

Yes, it may not be practical to do all training maneuvers from a winch unless you can consistently get over 2000' AGL. However, most of the PP-G PTS maneuvers can easily be done from lower release heights. It isn't likely a training operation will want their students to get certificates with only a winch launch endorsements anyway.

Let's consider training for a moment. With aero tows getting more and more expensive, training tends to proceed with the minimum possible number of tows as instructors try to minimize costs for their students. We may be paying a price for that in the number of landing accidents with people getting Private licenses with 40 - 60 total landings. (And some licensed pilots going for years with no more than 20 landings a year.)With the low costs of winch launch, instructors can really drill their students on landings and the rest of us can stay sharp. Yes, it may not be practical to do all training maneuvers from a winch unless you can consistently get over 2000' AGL. However, most of the PP-G PTS maneuvers can easily be done from lower release heights. It isn't likely a training operation will want their students to get certificates with only a winch launch endorsements anyway.

Let's consider training for a moment.
Our club has attracted two young students (highschool age) solely due to the fact that we can offer a large part of our training on the winch at very low cost.

...and the rest of us can stay sharp.
We are blessed with a very mild climate around here (South Carolina) and we can typically fly almost all year round. The operative word here is 'can'. Since we don't have good thermal conditions in the winter months, nobody in his right mind assembles his glider only to take a 2,000ft aero-tow and to sled-ride it down! Having the winch available, a good number of our members took advantage of it and took a few launches in our Twin now and then, thereby dramatically reducing the 'stupid-season' in the spring-time!

Yes, it may not be practical to do all training maneuvers from a winch unless you can consistently get over 2000' AGL.
Hmmm.... that may be a question of re-structuring the training syllabus. I trained off the winch in Germany all the way to first solo ('A'-badge) and didn't get into aero-towing until the end of my second year of training. A club rule stipulated that a minimum of 70 winch launches had to be made before the first solo (#71-73 were my 'A' flights), so my log-book shows a good number of 4-5 minute long training flights. Our typical release heights were 300m - 350m in our K-13.

It isn't likely a training operation will want their students to get certificates with only a winch launch endorsements anyway.
Agree 100% - I tell our members that the winch is by no means meant to replace the tow plane but rather than enhance and round out the club's offering..

Safe soaring!
U. Neumann

On Sat, 01 Dec 2012 08:37:20 -0800, GM wrote:

Hmmm.... that may be a question of re-structuring the training syllabus.
I trained off the winch in Germany all the way to first solo ('A'-badge)
and didn't get into aero-towing until the end of my second year of
training. A club rule stipulated that a minimum of 70 winch launches had
to be made before the first solo (#71-73 were my 'A' flights), so my
log-book shows a good number of 4-5 minute long training flights. Our
typical release heights were 300m - 350m in our K-13.

Same here. I took 79 winch launches and one aero tow to solo (UK), all
completed within one excellent soaring season. I started in late March,
and went solo toward the end of August. The one aero tow was for
instructor demonstrated spinning. The remainder of my spin training was
off the winch with the aid of thermal climbs. That was happenstance: my
spin training happened to be on days with good thermals.

I didn't get my solo aero-tow signoff until a year after I went solo. I
used my first aero-tow in a Junior to get Silver C duration off a 2000 ft
tow. This was a week before I flew the distance leg off a winch launch in
the same Junior.

It isn't likely a training operation will want their students to get
certificates with only a winch launch endorsements anyway.
Agree 100% - I tell our members that the winch is by no means meant to
replace the tow plane but rather than enhance and round out the club's
offering.

I prefer to go xc off the winch on the grounds that, if I can get away
from 1200 ft I've shown that its likely I can scratch away from a similar
height if I should get low away from home.


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