Private air strip..... yes or no???

"just an average Farlang..." wrote in
message
news:bm9yaWtv.2c49808e3f2f35f5431910160ea416b5@107 6505681.nulluser.com...
| Can anyone tell me what criteria, rules, regulations a person needs to
| be
| allowed to construct a private runway on his or her property.

It really depends on your local zoning. Federal laws allow a person to build
a runway just about anywhere, so it is up to local government officials to
regulate where and how he can build a runway.

You should talk to your neighbor about your concerns. Be frank -- don't beat
around the bush. Also call your local zoning board and find out when the
hearing is and put yourself on the agenda so that you can speak and tell
them your concerns.

I doubt if your neighbor is running a crop dusting business or even
developing an airpark. Also, he is likely to be well over 1000 feet up by
the time he passes over your house on takeoff, which is when the airplane is
most noisy.

It could be worse, I suppose. You could be living back in town with a
neighbor who runs his noisy leaf blower all day. I don't think there are any
places left where you will find pristine peace and quiet.

just an average Farlang... wrote:

Can anyone tell me what criteria, rules, regulations a person needs to
be
allowed to construct a private runway on his or her property. I know
there
are many factors that are not presently known in this scenario but I
can
try to input as much as I know.

You do not own the airspace above your house. As long as it is legal
for him to have a runway on his property you are out of luck.

Thai

1. Will this be a private airfield and listed on the charts? If so,
probably will have to meet some FAA rules. Have you checked with FAA?

2. If he is just landing on his own property you may have problems?
Again, ask FAA.

3. Have you set down with your neighbor and in a friendly tone tried
to talk out the problem? If you haven't, do that first, as there may
be a mutual solution to your problem that allows him to fly and not a
big bother to you ?

Point out the flight path over your house and see if he can cock his
strip 'catty corner' across his (2600') land. This will take pattern
away from your house and also give him a longer runway. Best of both
worlds.

What activity and type of A/C is planned? You may not even have a
problem.

Can he give you a call on phone prior to taking off so you can expect
the noise?

etc., etc., etc.

If you follow the don't get mad, get even train of activist:

4. Lay out a landing strip on your land pointing at his house. Use a
few times so he gets the idea.

5. Build a two story barn on your property at the end of his strip.

6. Put a skeet range on your property at the end of his strip )

7. Put up a windmill at the end of his strip to pump water for your
cattle to use.

8. Take up kite flying )

On prevailing wind. I sited a strip a number of years ago and went to
Wx bureau and got the number of days the wind blew from 360 degrees
around the clock for several years. I used the direction where the
wind blew the strongest and runway was built. Now we find that 'every'
day we have a cross wind as the strong winds only blow a few days in
the year and we just land with the these cross winds. Get winds from
Wx bureau and evaluate as possible ammo in your discussion. i.e., if
strong winds are only in winter when you have 6 feet of snow, they are
not a problem for private strip which will never get plowed ) If
this is to be a fair Wx summer strip, check winds for those months.

From my Owners Manuals I used while active as a CFI:

All figures with zero wind.

Cessna 150 (at gross)
``````````````````````````````````
2500 feet elevation 5000 feet elevation

Ground run = 910' Ground run = 1115'
Clear 50' obs = 1660' Clear 50' obs = 1985'

Cessna 172 (at gross)
``````````````````````````````````
2500 feet elevation 5000 feet elevation

Ground run = 1040' Ground run = 1255'
Clear 50' obs = 1910' Clear 50' obs = 2480'

Cessna 182 (at gross)
``````````````````````````````````
2500 feet elevation 5000 feet elevation

Ground run - 845' Ground run = 1015'
Clear 50' obs = 1625' Clear 50' obs = 1990'

Cessna 210 (at gross)
``````````````````````````````````
2500 feet elevation 5000 feet elevation

Ground run = 1325' Ground run = 1600'
Clear 50' obs = 2305' Clear 50' obs = 2855'

All of these figures are for a hard surface runway so have to be
adjusted (increased) for dirt R/W.

Hope some of this errata helps with your problem.

Keep the thread informed how you come out.

Big John

Sometimes you can't win for trying (



On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 08:21:21 -0500 (EST), "" just an average "
Farlang..." wrote:

Can anyone tell me what criteria, rules, regulations a person needs to
be allowed to construct a private runway on his or her property. I know
there are many factors that are not presently known in this scenario but I
can try to input as much as I know.

----clip----

You do not own the airspace above your house. As long as it is legal
for him to have a runway on his property you are out of luck.


In Benton County Oregon, the neighbors have considerable say in a situation
like this if the proposed use is on a list of conditional uses allowed on the
particular zoning of the land. Getting a conditional use permit requires the
county to notify and collect data from all the neighbors, then develop a plan
to mitigate concerns, or deny the application if they don't see a way to keep
the peace.

I think the operative word is to find out if the airstrip is a totally allowed
use or if some conditions or permit process is required in your county.

good luck,
tom

just an average Farlang... ) wrote:

My message topic was never intended to start up any flame war. I asked
a simple dam question of what can or can't be done just as the subject
of the thread suggests. Why can't people like you stop making things
out of it that were never put to it!

This is Usenet and it is best if you try not to take things too personally.
From where I sit reading this thread you are getting some pretty excellent
help from all involved. The only one descending this thread into a flame
war appears to be you.

FWIW...

--
Peter R.















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"just an average Farlang..." wrote in
message
news:bm9yaWtv.9cc04ee02a8bf61515c8a3baf728e8b9@107 6513463.nulluser.com...
I wouldn't say that. In fact the collective IQ of the message thread
increased exponentially after the first two posts.

You jumped to your conclusion about this newsgroup after two posts, one of
which wasn't even offensive (Don's)? You can't really expect this newsgroup
(which is for pilots, people probably more like your neighbor than like you)
to be 100% sympathetic to a person who is apparently looking to raise a
ruckus over an activity we all enjoy. Frankly, if you're handling the
neighbor situation the same way you're dealing with us, I think you're going
to find that this sort of knee-jerk, quick-to-judge attitude won't serve you
well.

Let's see if you can get all the way through this post without accusing me
of being a redneck too...

Maybe some are blind-sided by their interests... let me use a couple
exmamples:

"Blind-sided" isn't the phrase you want to use there.

As for your examples...

I previously lived on 5 acres and the police department told me I
could legally target shoot on my property with a gun but does that
mean it is ok?

Define "ok". Absent any other restrictions (property covenants and
restrictions found on the deed, for example), since it's not against the
law, you had every right to use a firearm on your property.

[...] Really, using common sense and good
judgement I concluded it is not appropriate to do this.

It probably wasn't, from a safety standpoint, unless you improved your
property to create an area where you could safely fire a weapon and be
assured the ammunition would remain on your property. Five acres doesn't
give a bullet very much room. But then, a bullet is deadly, and isn't the
same kind of thing as an airplane.

Yet, this really isn't relevant to the question you asked.

I have a racing motorcycle, just because it will go 165 miles per hour
does that mean I am allowed to do it?

Sure, on your own property or other private property. You could even drive
it at 165 miles per hour on public property where such things are allowed.
But there aren't any public roads in the US where you are permitted to drive
that fast.

Yet again, this really isn't relevant to the question you asked.

I got a dirt bike, does that mean I can go ride it anywhere I please
on private, public or forest land?

Again, the various lands you might operate your dirt bike on will have their
own use restrictions. Where dirt bikes are allowed, you may ride the dirt
bike. Where they aren't, you may not. Simple, no?

Yet again, this really isn't relevant to the question you asked.

If you're going to raise a fuss over your neighbor's "airport" (which
appears to not even be a sure thing at this point), you need to learn enough
about the legalities and issues to come up with valid comparisons. None of
the other examples you've given have any relevance at all, except VERY
vaguely from a "being neighborly" point of view. Frankly, you're not being
any more neighborly than the neighbor you're describing, and possibly less
so (hard to say, since all we know about his actions, we learn from you).

The theme of my message thread I believe is about acting responsible.

If you say so.

Just as a pilot and landowner should have the right to fly his
airplane shouldn't I have the right to sleep late on a hot summer day
with my bedroom window open without being woke up by some airplane
buzzing over my property and house?

You may or may not have that right. But you probably don't. I know I don't
in my house.

I paid for my land! I am entitled to the use of the land I paid for.

Unless the aircraft is taxiing on the ground, on your property, then the
operation of aircraft in the vicinity of your property has nothing to do
with the land you paid for. You bought the land, not exclusive rights to
the airspace over it.

I live in a residential neighborhood, near a medium-sized city. At various
times of the day, including late at night and in the wee hours of the
morning, there are the occasional aircraft that fly overhead. Usually it's
jets flying into the nearby (15 miles away or so) commercial airport. Other
times, it's a low-flying helicopter (as if there are any other kind ) or
less frequently a small plane (they are more often found during normal
daytime hours).

All of those aircraft have the legal right to overfly my house, and if that
disturbs my sleep or other activity (as it sometimes does), I have no legal
recourse.

How about if I were your nextdoor neighbor... Is it appropriate for me to
park
my truck in front of your house?

Are you parking your truck on my property? You don't have that right. Are
you parking your truck on public property, or on your own property adjacent
to mine? Then you do have that right, though local laws may restrict how
long you can leave your truck on public property, how it should be parked,
that sort of thing.

And yet again, that example has nothing to do with your original question.

How about if I owned 5 cars and had them parked all up and down
the street in front of your house?

How about it? If the street is public property, and you have not abandoned
them (by whatever legal definition exists in your neighborhood...it varies
from neighborhood to neighborhood, and in my neighborhood a vehicle needs to
be moved daily to avoid it being legally abandonded), you have every right
to park your five cars on the street in front of my house.

Oops...but yet again, this has nothing to do with the original question.

Speaking of which, I might as well use this post to comment on your original
post, rather than making a separate reply...

First of all, how did you come to the conclusion that "the prevailing winds
position the optimal take-off direction to be directly over" your house?
Runways do NOT need to be aligned directly into the prevailing winds, nor do
I believe that you have done a serious survey of the prevailing winds well
enough to determine what the optimal direction for a runway would be.
Finally, the direction the runway is pointed is only half the equation; you
also need to know *where* the runway is located. Offset the runway by fifty
feet or so in one direction or the other, and the departure path no longer
winds up over your house (assuming it was over your house in the first
place).

Secondly, how is that you have 500 acres, and yet your house is only 1500'
from the supposed runway? For someone who wanted peace and quiet, you sure
built your house pretty close to the property line. Not that this really
matters...the choice of where to build your house was yours, not your
neighbors. You can only ensure "peace and quiet" in as much as you obtain
enough land to buffer yourself from potential disruptions.

For what it's worth, 1500' from the property line is too close to ensure
peace and quiet insulated from any number of disruptive activities, any of
which are likely legal on your neighbor's property. Most of the examples
one might think of are noise-related (firearms, dirt bikes, go-karts, loud
automobile engines, etc.) but others might involve things like smoke or
other vapors drifting over from the property.

As far as what kind of airplanes your neighbor might operate, if he's only
got 2600' across his property to work with, there's no way he's going to
have any large airplane there. Probably bigger than an ultralight, since
you hardly need a runway for those. But he's not going to be able to make
full use of the 2600'...probably closer to 2000', and assuming he doesn't
pave it, that restricts the size of the aircraft even more. Especially
given the altitude of 3000' (the maximum temperature is less of an
indicator, since he might just not fly on those hot days).

As far as the "socialite parties" go, sure, he might have a few friends
over. I'd be surprised if more than a handful of airplanes show up at one
time though. But even if they did, that's just how it goes. Our house is
less than 50' from our neighbor's pool, where they have parties in the
summer all the time. Lots of loud goings-on. But since the parties occur
during the daytime, they're not in violation of any noise ordinances, nor do
I have any basis for complaint.

With respect to your question of whether your neighbor is "helping himself
to a sort of easement", rest assured he is not. You have no legal right to
restrict the use of the airspace above your property -- it's not yours -- so
he's not helping himself to anything.

As far as farm animals go (which you don't even have yet), there may be some
period of adjustment, but they will quickly learn that the aircraft is not a
threat, and the noise won't bother them at all. They don't have the human
capacity for hate or empathy, so they won't be sitting on the ground fuming
about how their neighbor is ruining their lives.

Bottom line: it is likely that your pilot is well within his legal rights
with respect to his planned airport. You can either be the ugly neighbor,
raise a big stink about it, make a bunch of lawyers rich fighting over
something in court when you'll likely lose anyway (unless you can outspend
the other guy), and so forth. Or, you can have a NICE conversation with
your neighbor, recognize that he's within his legal rights and work with him
to try to ensure that you both come out with a solution you're each happy
with.

Your choice.

Pete

I didn't make myself clear.

The purpose of hiring a lawyer is not necessarily to represent you at some
particular hearing. As the zoning commissioner noted, sometimes having a
lawyer representing you means you are simply screwing yourself.

The main purpose of hiring an attorney is to have him/her advise you as to
all of the avenues that may be open to you regarding this matter.

Sure, the zoning board may allow your neighbor to lay down a strip of
asphalt, but if there's a migratory bird range (or something) at the end of
the strip, your neighbor won't be flying any airplanes off of it.

So an attorney can advise you of all of the ways you can stop this thing,
whether you want to use them or not. And he would be able to help you
prepare the documents you would need to preserve your rights.

As I said, I don't like lawyers, but this is a time when you really need to
hire one. The $200 or so you would pay for a consultation would be money
well spent...





"just an average Farlang..." wrote in
message
news:bm9yaWtv.36a3367ae106408230a699a6630b24d0@107 6516792.nulluser.com...
Bill Denton wrote:

One of the most important things to do is immediately contact a
lawyer (and
I hate lawyers).


I don't believe this myself but I asked the zoning commissioner if I
would be allowed to have a lawyer represent me at the hearing and he
laughed and said if I did that he thought I would surely be voted
against. I don't know if it was a lawyer joke or the attitude of the
local people about having a lawyer address them.

(Thank you for your reply)

I don't remember the exact legal terms, but here's a layman's
explanation...

In some instances, if someone creates a nuisance, and you do not
contest
that nuisance immediately, you will never be able to contest that
nuisance.

So, while having a light plane fly over your house a couple of times
a week
might not bother you, the guy could theoretically suddenly decide to
start
running 20 747's a day out of his strip and you would not be able to
do
anything about it.

But if you act immediately, you can draft an agreement that would
let your
neighbor operate a certain number of flights per day/week/whatever
during
certain hours, and that's it. In this way you would be allowing your
neighbor reasonable use of his property while protecting your own
property
rights, and hopefully preserving your relationship with your
neighbor.

But you want to act on this immediately, as the game changes once
the first
airplane takes off or lands.

You might also want to check the FAR's, the FAA's website, and the
DOT's
website; I believe you'll find some information there.

"just an average Farlang..." wrote in
message

news:bm9yaWtv.2c49808e3f2f35f5431910160ea416b5@107 6505681.nulluser.com.
.
Can anyone tell me what criteria, rules, regulations a person
needs to
be
allowed to construct a private runway on his or her property. I
know
there
are many factors that are not presently known in this scenario but
I
can
try to input as much as I know.

My neighbor owns land that is 2600 feet wide. The elevation is
about
3000
feet and the hottest temperature is 91 degrees in the summer. The
land
is
located in Idaho. The prevailing winds position the optimal take
off
direction to be directly over my house about 1500 feet from the
property
line. I LOVE airplanes! I worked for Boeing (Lazy B) for the last
fifteen
years. I worked at Cessna in Witchita before that. I stop to watch
planes
take off and land. I LOVE PLANES!!! But what I don't love is
buying 500
acres to finally get some peace and quiet and then having some loud
plane
buzz my house at will. The person wanting to put in the runway has
money
to build a 3 floor nice house so I expect they will want to be
socialites
and invite all their friends to fly in for a barbacue on the
weekend.

I talked to planning and zoning and they don't even know what
prospective
planes will be flown there i.e. ultralites or larger planes that
require
longer runways. I would like to think it is being fair for me to
expect no
planes flying over my land below 500 feet whether taking off,
landing
or
pattern flying. I bought my land and paid for the use of each and
every
acre. If by putting in a runway on the edge of my property that
means
they
are helping themselves to a sort of "easement" flying a hundred
feet
or so
over my land that doesn't seem at all fair. I may wish to build a
barn,
corral animals (which might go crazy) penned up with planes buzzing
over
them.

Can I get some ideas on what is realistic?

I don't even know what a common length of runway is but a friend of
mine
told me using generic table calculations that a fully loaded small
plane
on a hot day could very well need a long take off and after lift
off ....
how long a distance til that plane gets to minimal required
elevation?


Yesterday I took a flying lesson with a chief piot and he told me a
small plane can lift off after about a thousand feet of runway and
then the maximum climb would be about 500 feet per minute. He
thought
for a plane to stay the necessaary elevation over my property the
pilot is required a total of no less than 4000 feet. The runway
will
be a dirt strip which also requires more distance.

any comments would be appreciated

"just an average Farlang..." wrote in
message
news:bm9yaWtv.79091ef375f43760b097c51b2b91c89a@107 6516246.nulluser.com...
[...]
I have not heard one reply in this thread commenting whether the
neighbor is allowed to do such a thing as he would be flying very low
over my property and below the minimum federally regulated altitude.

You didn't ask that question. The minimum federally regulated altitude
during takeoff and landing is 0' AGL. Yes, that's a zero.

I realize this is during a take off or landing but the fact remains with
this amount of land it is not possible to take off or land without
using other people's land for his runway to be possible.

"Possible"? That word means something other than what you seem to think it
means. He certainly CAN build a runway only on his property and still
operate an aircraft from it. No "not possible" about it.

If you are asking whether he's permitted to actually construct a portion of
his runway on your property, then no...of course he's not allowed to do
that. But that's not what your original post appeared to be asking.

Pete

"just an average Farlang" wrote in
message
news:bm9yaWtv.79091ef375f43760b097c51b2b91c89a@107 6516246.nulluser.com

hmmm.... Key phrase the "public". Look up the phrase "navigable
airspace" and see what it is, who owns it and who can use it.

It was an example that may apply in part but the land in question is
privately owned.

Your example may have been arbitrary, but my request wasn't. "Navigable
airspace" is federal domain and you have no claim to it - even if it is over
your property. As others have stated, if your land is under the
approach/departure path of an airport, planes may legally be lower than the
500' minimum that may otherwise apply - and you would have no legal
recourse.

Very true but what I am trying to address is where his rights on his
property end and where my rights on my property begin as it applies to
his plane taking off on his land and barely clearing a border fence
and his plane then affecting my rights

That's just it: The plane would not be affecting your rights. You're
claiming some "right" to "peace and quiet" - the only thing that you've
specifically claimed would be affected by this possible airport. Perhaps
Idaho is different, but I am aware of no jurisdiction that provides you with
a legal right to "peace and quiet".

I appreicate your thoughts but I hope you realize I do not
have "homeowner's associations" in outside areas.

I knew that was likely the case, but it doesn't preclude you from organizing
one with your neighbors, does it?

I have not heard one reply in this thread commenting whether the
neighbor is allowed to do such a thing as he would be flying very low
over my property and below the minimum federally regulated altitude. I
realize this is during a take off or landing but the fact remains with
this amount of land it is not possible to take off or land without
using other people's land for his runway to be possible.

See Peter's response. Simply put: You're wrong.

Please do not misunderstand my personal feelings and confuse that with
all I am trying to present as a topic of discussion in this newsgroup.
I am not asking for anyone's sympathy and I would never expect to get
it in this newsgroup.

Then what exactly are you hoping to achieve here?

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_s...veloperid=4415
____________________

In article busWb.278549$xy6.1422325@attbi_s02, Newps
wrote:

You do not own the airspace above your house. As long as it is legal
for him to have a runway on his property you are out of luck.

Not quite true.
Nothing to stop him from erecting a 500 foot tower on his property in
line with the runway.