Condor

On Saturday, March 9, 2013 7:15:23 PM UTC-6, Tony V wrote:
On 3/8/2013 3:33 PM, gliderpilotGR wrote:

Don't know what article is about, but let me second your concern over primacy issues (and bad habits too) that may be caused by such endless hours of unsupervised practice. Should be forbidden for low time pilots, IMHO. In any enviroment other than a very well focused training organisation, trouble in the making





A few members of the Greater Boston Soaring Club built this Condor based

sim. We're just starting to work with it and so I have no report at this

time. These guys did a great job.



http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?s...68626& type=1





Tony "6N"

Tony,
What's the deal with the instruments in the glider panel? They look really good, are they functional? Did you put a tablet computer behind the panel and somehow displayed the instruments only on that tablet?

Herb

On Sunday, March 10, 2013 8:24:17 AM UTC-6, wrote:
On Saturday, March 9, 2013 7:15:23 PM UTC-6, Tony V wrote:

On 3/8/2013 3:33 PM, gliderpilotGR wrote:



Don't know what article is about, but let me second your concern over primacy issues (and bad habits too) that may be caused by such endless hours of unsupervised practice. Should be forbidden for low time pilots, IMHO. In any enviroment other than a very well focused training organisation, trouble in the making











A few members of the Greater Boston Soaring Club built this Condor based



sim. We're just starting to work with it and so I have no report at this



time. These guys did a great job.







http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?s...68626& type=1











Tony "6N"



Tony,

What's the deal with the instruments in the glider panel? They look really good, are they functional? Did you put a tablet computer behind the panel and somehow displayed the instruments only on that tablet?



Herb

It's a 2nd small computer monitor with only instruments displayed. A panel overlay makes it look realistic.

On 3/10/2013 10:24 AM, wrote:
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?s...68626& type=1

Tony "6N"
Tony,
What's the deal with the instruments in the glider panel? They look really good, are they functional? Did you put a tablet computer behind the panel and somehow displayed the instruments only on that tablet?

Herb

The instruments are fully functional - although we're talking about
disabling the gyros for the contest season. :-) I asked the sim builders
for the hardware details for the instruments and will post as soon as I
get them.

Tony

On 3/10/2013 10:18 PM, Tony V wrote:
On 3/10/2013 10:24 AM, wrote:
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?s...68626& type=1


Tony "6N"
Tony,
What's the deal with the instruments in the glider panel? They look
really good, are they functional? Did you put a tablet computer
behind the panel and somehow displayed the instruments only on that
tablet?

Herb

The instruments are fully functional - although we're talking about
disabling the gyros for the contest season. :-) I asked the sim builders
for the hardware details for the instruments and will post as soon as I
get them.

Tony


For the instruments suite we run Free Condor Instruments software
(http://condorsoaring.ru/projects/FreeCondorInstruments) contributed
by the Russian Condor community. The software runs on the same Windows
machine which runs Condor, it intercepts Condor's UDP flight parameter
stream and renders the instruments. A small LCD panel from a cheap
monitor is used to render the instruments behind a mask/frame fitted
with faux screws (for realism). A PDA runs a copy of XCSoar and uses
Condor-generated GPS stream over a serial port. A short throw
projector beams the scenery onto a screen.

Tony

Please... read the article. Then let's talk about it.

I have absolutely no axe to grind w.r.t. Condor or any other flight sim and there is absolutely no need for anyone to leap in here to defend that which isn't being attacked (e.g. the use of simulators in flight training). As mentioned previously, I've used them myself most recently to train for RC flying.

Scott's article is *much* more radical. I will not attempt to summarize. Go read it.

T8

On Friday, March 8, 2013 4:59:56 PM UTC-6, Evan Ludeman wrote:
Please... read the article. Then let's talk about it.



I have absolutely no axe to grind w.r.t. Condor or any other flight sim and there is absolutely no need for anyone to leap in here to defend that which isn't being attacked (e.g. the use of simulators in flight training). As mentioned previously, I've used them myself most recently to train for RC flying.



Scott's article is *much* more radical. I will not attempt to summarize. Go read it.



T8

Scott Manley made an excellent presentation regarding the subject at our Chicagoland Soaring and Safety Seminar last month (thanks again, Scott!). It may have been a sneak preview of the next 'Soaring' article his referring to in this month's column so I won't go into the details. I believe his comments on training ab initio students exclusively on Condor are based on facts. However, it was training that he and other CFIGs supervised in on-line sessions with the student in another state. His experiences - which he documented with video in his talk - will surprise you.
Herb Kilian
Chicagoland Glider Council

I think that my main concern would be the frequency and quality of lookout..

It is very evident to instructors (in my UK experience of talking to some, as well as having been one) that too many pilots do not have very good lookout. There is hard evidence – the numbers of collisions – as well as instructors’ impressions during check flights. (By the way, as I have written in an article for the UK Sailplane and Gliding magazine, my lookout is not good enough either – nobody’s is, IMHO – humans are just not near perfect enough. But to get anywhere with it, one has to at least try.)

There is further evidence in videos posted by people of their flights, using in-cockpit cameras – in some, the pilot’s head hardly ever moves from the straight ahead. In others, the head is sometimes seen to turn to the inside of a turn but not to its outside.

A major feature of initial instruction in gliders in the UK is the emphasis on lookout, particularly before turning – and lookout all round, not just in the direction of turn. Is this the same in other countries?

This is repeated in subsequent flights – many instructors block the stick being moved if the student tries to turn before looking out.
I have never seen a simulator that even simulated nearby gliders that are potential collision risks, let alone seen anyone trying proper all-round “lookout” in a simulator. I think primacy is the thing here – if students do not practice this from the start, they are unlikely to remember later.

I no longer instruct, but do have check flights every year. I expect my lookout to be monitored, and commented upon if not seen as adequate. No simulator at present does that, AFAIK.

Chris N

Condor has limitations, to be sure. However it's accessibility and modest cost may save our little sport from extinction if properly applied. I would like to see more CFI-G's use it, and if students can bootstrap themselves to some extent, then great. Maybe it just gets them hooked, or motivates them between real flights. (and yes, I did read the article)

One issue with Condor is that it hasn't been improved in a long while. Imagine it upgraded to the visual quality and realism of X-plane, which I believe is certified for flight training. X-Plane is great for power, but very weak for gliders (mostly doe to the poor atmospheric simulation.)

I would like to thank Frank and Scott for their pioneering work in this area. You have found a way to overcome many of the social and financial limitations of glider flight training today, and forged ahead in the face of much criticism. Well Done!

Matt

My March Soaring Magazine finally arrived so I got the chance to read Scott Manley's "Condor Corner" on distance learning with a flight simulator.

I know Scott. Unlike 99% of CFI-G's, he has an advanced degree in secondary education. He's a PROFESSIONAL EDUCATOR while the rest of us are mere instructors. He knows whereof he speaks.

There is nothing in his column to raise alarm. In fact there is much to admire. He has developed a way to train pilots which address almost every drawback of conventional flight training. It's particularly effective in the long winter months of northern climes.

Nor is it unusual. Every other branch of aviation is using simulators extensively in primary training. Soaring is the last to adopt them.

Yes, we need better hardware and software. At the top of the list would be inexpensive projection domes and full-featured cockpits with force feedback controls. The training software needs instant reset to a pre-selected point in the sky so a maneuver can be quickly repeated. But most of all, we need a commitment to use simulators in primary training.

Condor is here to stay. Better to accept it and find ways of utilizing it to improve training, safety, and participation rather than complaining, worrying, and arguing about it's obvious limitations and potential drawbacks.

MM