Best cross country ship class

Oh....discuss with your CFI he / she will be best placed to advise you

At 08:16 16 October 2013, Justin Craig wrote:
All the reply's you have had are really relevant, in the short term you
will find it easier to get the performance out of a non flapped glider,
however flaps are a bonus especially in strong conditions.

I fly a 27 and absolutely love it. It has no real vices and is easy to
handle and goes very well. You will get to grips with the flaps quite
quickly, but it will take a little longer to get the best out of it.

I am also lucky to have about 300 hours in an LS8 which is also a
stunning
glider, however when I get into the LS8 now, I really miss having the
flaps.

Flaps.....push the handle forward = go faster......pull it back = slow
down.

Forgive me if this is a simplistic view, but they are really not
difficult.


In summary, I guess what I am saying is that you will be happy for a very
long time in a 27. If you can afford a 27...go for it and have fun.

JC



At 21:29 15 October 2013, Seattle wrote:
I'm in the market for a standard class or 15 meter flapped ship. This
is
my first ship, and I doubt I want to deal with 18 m of wings.

An example would be a Discus 2 vs ASW 27. Currently most of my flight
goals are simple: get as high up, and far out as possible. Speed is
nice,
but I'm doubtful I'll be comfortable in a competition for many seasons.

All other things being equal, which is the better type (flapped or
non-flapped) for staying up a long time and, eventually, cross country
flights?

Thanks!

From my own experience in over 40 different types of sailplanes, Flaps add very little additional workload. Like driving a manual transmission car, it quickly becomes second nature.

Certainly flaps add to better extreme high speed performance. Climb is a more subjective thing. The more experienced pilot with the best sorted out Glider is usually the best climber. The differences are so small in all the production sailplanes, that I doubt anyone that tells me that one particular model is the best,

As far as your question, I prefer Flaps for 1 reason. Landing. Regardless of where you fly, eventually you will have to land off field. It's my experience that steep slow low energy approaches are the easiest done in a flapped ship. I have never had as much confidence flying XC as I did in my ASW-20C. Flaps, spoilers and a great hydraulic disc brake.

As an ex Seattle area pilot. I would highly suggest as much XC exposure as possible. The Seattle Glider Council program with the DG-1000 is good. Hitch a ride with 1 of the members. You will learn a lot just riding along.

A would also suggest taking the time to commute to Ephrata or Wenatchee http://www.cascadesoaringsociety.com/ in Eastern Washington for your early XC flights. There are very few places in this Country that are as safe for Off field landings as these sites. They offer ability to fly Thermal, Ridge and Wave and land anywhere safely. If you can't make it to an airport, your next choice is at least a section sized field, usually with No obstacles.

Buy FLAPS, Get Training in a 2 Seater and Fly Often.

Good luck and let us know what you do.

Paul
Scottsdale AZ

I still own and have many cross-country flights out west in a D2. It's probably the sweetest thermalling ship I've ever owned. Full of water, it will hold its own with most 15-meter ships. The cross-country performance is more likely to be limited by the pilot than the ship.

Having said that, I will agree with others who have recommended flaps. Aero-tow with a fully-ballasted D2 is hairy if you have a weak or slow tug and I sure miss the flaps from my previous ASW-20 when it comes to landing in short spaces.

Mike

The problem with these kinds of posts on RAS is that you will always get a very contradictory response. Everyone has their preference and opinion. Read what you see here, do your own research about the ships mentioned, formulate your own opinion after everyone has said their piece, and do some more research to find the technical/handling details of the ship you are interested.

In the end, no matter what you buy, you will be able to learn to fly it, and I have no doubt that you will enjoy flying it. It takes a lot of flying for someone to outgrow an airplane.

Enjoy and good luck!

Phil

If you can afford it, to my mind, the biggest factors that would
sway me in favour of an ASW27 over an ASW20 are, firstly, the
great improvement in cockpit crashworthiness and, secondly,
having an automatically connecting elevator on rigging.

The front cockpits of all the early GRP gliders are basically
streamlining fairings that simply disintegrate on impact.

There have been numerous reports of gliders with hotelier
connected elevators being launched with the elevator
disconnected. I knew one pilot who was killed that way when
flying in Europe. The problem isn't so much with hoteliers
themselves as it is with a pilot simply forgetting to connect them
and then compounding that by forgetting to do proper positive
control checks.

John Galloway

I think 20B's or C's have auto elevators. Very expensive mod for the 20A.

Jordan

On Tuesday, October 15, 2013 5:29:01 PM UTC-4, Seattle wrote:
I'm in the market for a standard class or 15 meter flapped ship. This is my first ship, and I doubt I want to deal with 18 m of wings.



An example would be a Discus 2 vs ASW 27. Currently most of my flight goals are simple: get as high up, and far out as possible. Speed is nice, but I'm doubtful I'll be comfortable in a competition for many seasons.



All other things being equal, which is the better type (flapped or non-flapped) for staying up a long time and, eventually, cross country flights?



Thanks!

On Tuesday, October 15, 2013 5:29:01 PM UTC-4, Seattle wrote:
I'm in the market for a standard class or 15 meter flapped ship. This is my first ship, and I doubt I want to deal with 18 m of wings.



An example would be a Discus 2 vs ASW 27. Currently most of my flight goals are simple: get as high up, and far out as possible. Speed is nice, but I'm doubtful I'll be comfortable in a competition for many seasons.



All other things being equal, which is the better type (flapped or non-flapped) for staying up a long time and, eventually, cross country flights?



Thanks!

I don't think resale value has been mentioned. If you value money like me you should stick to S-H, ASW,or LS. (I hope my many LAK friends will forgive me!).I had to quit 10 years ago but owned a couple dozen gliders (some flapped, most not) and raced them several thousand hours. My fav was LS-8. Close second was Discus (I owned 4 Disci, one A, two B's, and a 2.) My fav flapped was ASW-20. I flew but never owned a 27 and can't say enough good about it. I hope you have 50 years of soaring fun to look forward to as I did at your level. Ed Byars

There has been quite a bit of very good advice on this issue. For what
it is worth, having faced a similar decision in the past transitioning
with low hours from club materiel to a private glider (ASW24E in my
case), here is how I see it:

Buy a glider you will be happy to fly. Everybody has their own view of
what this may be, so take the time to form your own opinion. Choosing a
glider is a very personal journey.

A glider, when well-cared for will keep its value, so it will be
realistic to change if you feel after some time that you want something
else. Having said that, it is better to buy what you want now, rather
than move up to it slowly provided it is a suitable choice (i.e. open
class could be tricky as a first glider).

Here are the main points I would like to consider:

You can have incredible fun in a classic wooden glider (and it is good
to remind yourself once in a while by taking a few flights in one), but
if it is cross-country you fancy, going for slick fiber is what you
probably want. Having said that, if you can have access to such glider,
it would be nice to be able to take your first cross-country steps in
one. The confidence one gets with being able to land practically
anywhere with these low-speed low-wing-loading machines is awesome.

When considering old versus new glass, there is some incredible value to
be had in some of the great older models out there (ASW20, LS4, Discus
etc), but you will have to carefully evaluate what you buy. If it is
well maintained and has gel-coat in top condition, do not fear. However,
buying a glider with gel-coat in bad or simply unknown condition could
become a heap of expensive trouble very fast (and would be difficult to
resell at good value).

The good thing with the newer models is that they will usually be more
trouble-free to maintain. It is also the case that most newer models
have a safety cockpit, which to me is a very crucial feature to
consider, as well as other safety-related features such as
self-connecting controls which are harder to find the more back you go.

I would not be fazed by the flaps/non-flaps issue, this is a matter of
style in the models we are discussing (although if flying in areas with
very strong weather it can make a difference). Nor would I obsess over a
few points of L/D. It will probably take quite some time before such
things start making a difference in your performance if at all. For most
of us pilots, what flies the farthest is the glider we feel happiest
flying in.

What could make a difference is the quirkiness of some older models --
although to my knowledge the gliders being discussed here are excellent
in terms of handling. It is typical of newer models (even the hottest
racing machines) in 15 to 18m wingspan that they are a joy and easy to
fly, devoid of strange flight behavior or quirky handling requirements.

What will be different is that they are slippery and much heavier than
what you have been used to flying (even if you have been training in
glass). This means that everything will happen much faster and that
energy management will have to be more precise. There is nothing
inherently difficult or exotic in this. It just takes a few flights to
get used to it, so by all means consider a trip to a site will an
appropriate training fleet as part of your purchase process and take the
time needed to acclimatize to this new environment.

One last thing I have learned the hard way: it is better to invest in
the best trailer you can buy and spend the balance on the glider rather
than the opposite. Your trailer setup will probably have the most
influence on how often you fly, or how far away you dare venture. Make
it a good one.

Have fun and be safe,

Alexander


On 16/10/2013 00:29, Seattle wrote:
I'm in the market for a standard class or 15 meter flapped ship. This is my first ship, and I doubt I want to deal with 18 m of wings.

An example would be a Discus 2 vs ASW 27. Currently most of my flight goals are simple: get as high up, and far out as possible. Speed is nice, but I'm doubtful I'll be comfortable in a competition for many seasons.

All other things being equal, which is the better type (flapped or non-flapped) for staying up a long time and, eventually, cross country flights?

Thanks!

I think you should fly a 1-26 for a year or two. I hate it when green pilots confuse the level of performance with the level of fun...