Nose release for a Ventus B

On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 6:44:21 PM UTC-4, wrote:
The biggest problem I've seen with cg hooks is in combination with tail skids on early gliders, like our ex club mini nimbus. With a good tail wheel, you get a lot of crosswind directional stability in the early part of takeoff roll.

So last Spring I watched from directly behind as a pilot on his first flight with his new-to-him CG-only hooked glider, yaw and then, balanced on the main wheel only, get dragged sideways by the tow rope while simultaneously tracking on the wheel further to the side (and that made the angle worse). The wing did not drag and he straightened it out. This all happened rather fast. So did this launch only look edgy?

I wonder... Why aren't nose hooks standard equipment?

I find the CG hook to be more useful since I can use it for either ground or
aero tow. Why should I have two releases with the added complexity,
maintenance, and expense? Four of the five gliders I've owned have a CG
hook only and I've never had a launch accident. Not worried about one,
either.

So, are those of us who don't have nose hooks not smart since we don't run
out and install nose hooks?


"son_of_flubber" wrote in message
...
I heartily applaud anyone that adds a nose hook to their glider. Smart
move.

So many have told me that "real pilots aerotow with C.G. hooks". Why not
make your glider inherently less prone to a whole class of launch
accidents? The modification benefits you and all future users of your
glider.

Sure you can "fly the glider", but you can also make a mistake one day.

Well... I *did* watch a Nimbus II pitch up to the vertical and then
cartwheel just as the tow plane was lifting off, but I don't attribute that
to the CG release. That was the pilot over controlling. He also crashed a
G-103 with a paying passenger on board and that was using a nose hook.

I won't mention any names...


wrote in message
...
The biggest problem I've seen with cg hooks is in combination with tail
skids on early gliders, like our ex club mini nimbus. With a good tail
wheel, you get a lot of crosswind directional stability in the early part of
takeoff roll.

You won't ground loop on takeoff until a wing goes down and starts dragging.
The nose hook is only useful if you plan to leave the wing down, dragging
away, hoping to pick it up, and rudder isn't enough to keep the glider
straight. Releasing might be a better plan -- and now it doesn't matter
where the hook is.

On modern gliders, I can't see how uncommanded kiting is a problem on
airtows. Lots of elevator authority, c.g. or not. The extra pitch up moment
from the cg hook is -- except for unbelievably rare circumstances (Robertson
crash) -- plenty

John Cochrane

On Monday, October 28, 2013 7:57:24 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Even though my manual refers to both a nose and CG release, my Ventus only came with a CG. I am thinking of having a E85 TOST release installed for safer towing. Has anyone added a nose release to a previously CG release glider?



Dennis

I appreciate every ones advice. I have tons of years on Hang Gliders but relatively new to Sailplanes. I am waiting to see what the cost for the kit is before I decide but unless its reasonable I am leaning against the change.

On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 7:55:41 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
I wonder... Why aren't nose hooks standard equipment?

My understanding is that CS-22 (aka JAR 22) requires nose hooks in all new gliders.

On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 7:55:41 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
I wonder... Why aren't nose hooks standard equipment?

My understanding is that CS-22 (aka JAR-21) requires nose hooks in all new gliders.

On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 7:39:37 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 6:44:21 PM UTC-4, wrote:

The biggest problem I've seen with cg hooks is in combination with tail skids on early gliders, like our ex club mini nimbus. With a good tail wheel, you get a lot of crosswind directional stability in the early part of takeoff roll.



So last Spring I watched from directly behind as a pilot on his first flight with his new-to-him CG-only hooked glider, yaw and then, balanced on the main wheel only, get dragged sideways by the tow rope while simultaneously tracking on the wheel further to the side (and that made the angle worse).. The wing did not drag and he straightened it out. This all happened rather fast. So did this launch only look edgy?

If it looked exciting, it probably was.

Otoh, the fact that he managed to get it sorted out suggests that "dragged sideways" is over stating things a bit.

Some early 70's gliders have a poor reputation for launching. Tail skids, off center tow hooks, small rudder...

Most late 70s and newer gliders tow fine on CG hooks, but you do have to steer. It's not difficult, but it needs to be covered in the transition to type brief. I'm going to guess that your example pilot wasn't minding the store simply because he didn't know he had to.

Evan Ludeman / T8

On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 8:34:34 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 7:55:41 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:

I wonder... Why aren't nose hooks standard equipment?



My understanding is that CS-22 (aka JAR-21) requires nose hooks in all new gliders.

I believe you are correct; also, some countries (Australia, for one) require nose hooks for aerotows. So despite our macho posturing (mea culpa!) nose hooks really are a better, statistically safer setup for aerotows. So yeah, if the mod is affordable - go for it, especially if you are new to the sport and a bit concerned about it. just don't think a CG hook makes every launch an adventure - if you understand the forces involved, and plan & fly accordingly, CG hooks are no big deal.

My original point (lost in the bs) was that if there is a choice, I would go for upgrades that enhance areas of safety that I can't control directly via skill - FLARM of a transponder, for example. And in the specific case of the Ventus B, GET WINGLETS - huge improvement in handling qualities!

Kirk
66

On Thursday, October 31, 2013 5:03:09 AM UTC-6, Evan Ludeman wrote:
On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 7:39:37 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:

On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 6:44:21 PM UTC-4, wrote:



The biggest problem I've seen with cg hooks is in combination with tail skids on early gliders, like our ex club mini nimbus. With a good tail wheel, you get a lot of crosswind directional stability in the early part of takeoff roll.







So last Spring I watched from directly behind as a pilot on his first flight with his new-to-him CG-only hooked glider, yaw and then, balanced on the main wheel only, get dragged sideways by the tow rope while simultaneously tracking on the wheel further to the side (and that made the angle worse). The wing did not drag and he straightened it out. This all happened rather fast. So did this launch only look edgy?



If it looked exciting, it probably was.



Otoh, the fact that he managed to get it sorted out suggests that "dragged sideways" is over stating things a bit.



Some early 70's gliders have a poor reputation for launching. Tail skids, off center tow hooks, small rudder...



Most late 70s and newer gliders tow fine on CG hooks, but you do have to steer. It's not difficult, but it needs to be covered in the transition to type brief. I'm going to guess that your example pilot wasn't minding the store simply because he didn't know he had to.



Evan Ludeman / T8

I've seen a few gliders (as T8 describes) out west retro-fitted with Applebay nose (under nose actually) hooks, which retract flush after release. Similar in design to the Schreder releases. Rather cheaper to install than TOST options, if available.

Frank Whiteley

I do have the masak winglets.

Dennis





On Thursday, October 31, 2013 8:53:57 AM UTC-4, kirk.stant wrote:
On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 8:34:34 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:

On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 7:55:41 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:



I wonder... Why aren't nose hooks standard equipment?









My understanding is that CS-22 (aka JAR-21) requires nose hooks in all new gliders.



I believe you are correct; also, some countries (Australia, for one) require nose hooks for aerotows. So despite our macho posturing (mea culpa!) nose hooks really are a better, statistically safer setup for aerotows. So yeah, if the mod is affordable - go for it, especially if you are new to the sport and a bit concerned about it. just don't think a CG hook makes every launch an adventure - if you understand the forces involved, and plan & fly accordingly, CG hooks are no big deal.



My original point (lost in the bs) was that if there is a choice, I would go for upgrades that enhance areas of safety that I can't control directly via skill - FLARM of a transponder, for example. And in the specific case of the Ventus B, GET WINGLETS - huge improvement in handling qualities!



Kirk

66