Spin

In article , CV
wrote:

Well, what is to stop you cutting the power ? Or do you mean a spin entered
under power will be unrecoverable even if the power is cut ?
I have vague memory about some kind of spin mode in an aerobatic plane,
that was only recoverable by applying full power. Ring a bell, anyone ?

Power applied during a spin, in general, will flatten the spin (raise
the nose). Centrigal (sic) force will throw objects (human bodies)
outward from the CG (as Denny's post pointed out). The object is to get
the nose down and move the weight forward withing the CG envelope.

CV wrote:

I have vague memory about some kind of spin mode in an aerobatic plane,
that was only recoverable by applying full power. Ring a bell, anyone ?

Part of Jimmy Franklin's old routine (before he put the jet engine on his Waco) was
an inverted flat spin. When he began his recovery, you could hear the engine going
from idle to near full power several times.

George Patterson
If you don't tell lies, you never have to remember what you said.

On Wed, 05 May 2004 14:00:23 GMT, "G.R. Patterson III"
wrote:

Part of Jimmy Franklin's old routine (before he put the jet engine on his Waco) was
an inverted flat spin. When he began his recovery, you could hear the engine going
from idle to near full power several times.

George Patterson

I think, not positive, but I think that what he was doing was
attempting to blast air across the rudder to get it enough authority
to stop the spin.

I saw him do that at the airshow at Lebanon NH a number of years ago
before he put the jet engine on his Waco, and I swear he nearly did
not make it out of his flat inverted spin.

He'd had other maneuvers that he pulled out with far more altitude to
spare but this time it really did not look good. You could see him
horsing the controls and the engine went to full power and idle a
number of times and he was really getting low. I didn't see how he
could recover from the spin and still roll upright in time to pull
out.

He did, just. He was so low that he actually dipped down into the
slight drainage swale beside the runway as he pulled out and it was
obvious to me he did not plan it that way. What I mean is he only
just got the airplane upright and horsed the stick back immediately.
He might have some within a few feet of the ground. It could just be
me, but all the maneuvers after that appeared ragged and occured at a
much higher altitude. He seemed shaken.

The airshow was already shocking in that a woman pilot in a Pitt's
collided with a jumper and both died. The Pitts disintegrated and
went down and crashed beside the river and the parachutist was
decapitated.

His body floated overhead dripping blood along the way and landed
smack in front of the crowd.

I missed the collision. I'd seen the act before and wasn't paying
attention as the jumpers left their jump plane. Just saw the
particles of the airplane hanging in the air from the collision.

The woman and two other Pitts pilots were supposed to circle the
parachutists as they came in together. Only the pilots did not know
that a third guy was added to the jumpers, or at least I heard she did
not know. They saw two dive away and turned in to begin their
circling. Then the third jumped.

Corky Scott

Criminey, are snuff films legal for TV now?

"Elwood Dowd" wrote in message
...
Criminey, are snuff films legal for TV now?


There is no such thing as a snuff film.

Now, the show prompted me to
consider taking some sort of spinning and recovering training.

Like you, I had a spin demonstrated to me early in training (against
airport rules, by the way) and longed to have more experience. So late
one winter I flew out to Phoenix for five days of spin training and
aerobatics. (I had other objectives. Three days would be plenty.) I
wrote a story about it which is at www.pipercubforum.com/chandler.htm

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org

Get the spin training!
The FAA screwed the pooch on that one when they eliminated it from the
syllabus... Having competence in recovering from a spin makes you a better
pilot and almost guarantees that you will never unintentionally enter a
spin...
Besides which, after spin training you will wear a crushed officers cap, sun
glasses even at night, a worn leather jacket, a big watch, and be
irresistible to beautiful women who will throw themselves at you... What
are you waiting for? jeeezzzz

denny

"Toks Desalu" Now, the show prompted me to
consider taking some sort of spinning and recovering training. Am I being
overacting or paranoid?

Toks Desalu wrote:

And I wonder why they FAA removed spin training as requirement in early
years?

They removed it because many people were dying during spin recovery training. They
decided to teach people to avoid stalls and recover promptly from inadvertent stalls,
because an aircraft will not spin unless it stalls first. The FAA feels that the
reduced fatality rate proves they made the correct decision.

George Patterson
If you don't tell lies, you never have to remember what you said.

G.R. Patterson III wrote:

Toks Desalu wrote:

And I wonder why they FAA removed spin training as requirement in early
years?


They removed it because many people were dying during spin recovery training. They
decided to teach people to avoid stalls and recover promptly from inadvertent stalls,
because an aircraft will not spin unless it stalls first. The FAA feels that the
reduced fatality rate proves they made the correct decision.

Canada removed spin training in the late 1990's for the same reason. We
kept it for decades after the U.S. gave it up, but our stall/spin fatality
rate was actually higher than the rate in the U.S. By the time I did my PPL
in 2002, spin training was already just a memory.

Transport Canada produced a report on the issue, basically concluding that
stall/spin accidents almost always happen too low for recovery, and since
practicing spin recoveries was killing the occasional student and
instructor, it made no sense to keep it on the syllabus.

One interest artifact of all that, though, is that since spin training was
part of the Canadian PPL until the late 1990's, my unscientific observation
is that Canadian flying schools are much less likely than American schools
to own Piper Cherokees/Warriors/Archers, since most Pipers from the 1970's
on do not allow intentional spins.


All the best,


David

Well, if i can have my 2 cents....

Now, the show prompted me to
consider taking some sort of spinning and recovering training. Am I being
overacting or paranoid?

I am not an airplane pilot, but a glider pilot, and I have done my training
in France, even if I have flown a couple of hours in the US. In my training,
spin was mandatory, and my instructor, before my solo, asked me to do 3 full
revolutions in a spin, and exit on a pre-determined axe. Certainly, a glider
is less impressive than an heavy plane and rotate relatively slower, but,
that's not the point.

When you fly sailplane, while you spiral in a lift, you are constanly
flirting with stalling, as the goal is to fly at the maximum lift
incidence/speed, which is a couple knots above stall, and when you are busy
trying to center as well as possible that anemic thermal, your speed is not
always perfect.

All that to say that I stalled (dissymetric, being in turn) many times with
my Standard Austria ( not the SHK ), as this sailplane is known to not like
too much slow speed, but i NEVER did more than an half rotation, losing less
than a hundred feet each time, as I do believe that if you know the signs
annonciating a stall, and react immediatly, most of the time you will not
even stall. (I also did many 300 kilometers circuits with my Austria)

All the above to say that, maybe, your best training would be to fly
sailplane, as you will know how to get out of a stall as fast as possible,
and flirt with the limits a lot more than you are used to in your airplane.

Bernard