ATC clears takeoff aircraft for midair

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...


The tower at a class D airport does not provide much in the way of traffic
separation.

None, except on the runway.

They schedule takeoffs and landings and that is about it.

Really?


They
don't have to tell you when to turn crosswind to downwind,

But they can and often do to keep the flow of traffic running smooth.


or what heading a
departing aircraft is to take.

You don't get headings but you may be told not to turn before you cross the
farmhouse over yonder.

I gotta disagree with you Jay. I fly out of a busier airport than HPN--FRG
also in NY. It's class D as well and I shudder when I think about that
airport not having a control tower. It's far from perfect but the
controllers do their best to try and warn pilots of nearby aircraft even
though it's not their responsibility. What would your solution be? Make
Class C the first airspace designation with towers? Make all Class D's Class
C's? Give Class D ATC separation responsibilities? The last solution would
require prohibitively expensive radar upgrades.

Marco

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:734pc.91269$Ik.6994445@attbi_s53...
The tower at a class D airport does not provide much in the way of
traffic
separation. They schedule takeoffs and landings and that is about it.

Which is why, IMHO, Class D airspace is the single most dangerous airspace
around.

The designation of "Class D" provides the veneer of controlled airspace
without any real substance, and lulls the unwary into a false sense of
security.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"






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"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...

The lesson here is that it's your job to keep a good lookout for
traffic. Doesn't matter if you're IFR, VFR, talking to a controller,
etc. Always keep a good traffic watch, and do whatever you
gotta do to keep from hitting other airplanes. The tower's sole
responsibility is to sequence traffic and provide separation on
the runways and taxiways. Regardless of all the instructions
and warnings they might give you, legally if you are VFR at a
class D airport, the primary responsibility for avoiding other
traffic rests with you.

One thing you should realize about the phrase "maintain visual
separation". It's more than just a suggestion, it's the controller's
way (for the benefit of the tape recording) of legally transferring
separation responsibility to you.


How can "maintain visual separation" transfer separation responsibility from
the tower to the pilot if, as you said earlier, the tower has no
responsibility for separation?

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
If you want that kind of service you need to
fly out of class B airports. It is up to the pilots to look out for one
another.

Even class B airports expect you to be able to navigate on yor own.
They do however provided separation to everybody.

On Fri, 14 May 2004 09:59:38 -0400, "Marco Leon"
mleon(at)optonline.net wrote in Message-Id:
:

What would your solution be? Make
Class C the first airspace designation with towers? Make all Class D's Class
C's?

IIRC, VFR flights within Class C airspace are not separated from each
other either. Only IFR flights are provided separation from other
aircraft within Class C airspace.


--

Irrational beliefs ultimately lead to irrational acts.
-- Larry Dighera,

"Marco Leon" mleon(at)optonline.net wrote in message
...

I gotta disagree with you Jay. I fly out of a busier airport than
HPN--FRG also in NY. It's class D as well and I shudder when
I think about that airport not having a control tower. It's far from
perfect but the controllers do their best to try and warn pilots of
nearby aircraft even though it's not their responsibility. What
would your solution be? Make Class C the first airspace
designation with towers? Make all Class D's Class C's? Give
Class D ATC separation responsibilities? The last solution
would require prohibitively expensive radar upgrades.


ATC doesn't provide VFR/VFR separation in Class C airspace either.

Newps wrote:

There's no reason for a class D tower controller to ever use the phrase
"maintain visual separation" to two VFR aircraft. There was no separation
standard in the first place, thus nothing to transfer to the pilot.

I was wondering that too. More, in all my experiences with class D airports
(I'm based at CDW, but I've been to TEB several times, HPN once, SWF a lot,
....) I don't think I've ever heard that expression used.

BTW, my experience at TEB is limited (perhaps a dozen visits there), but my
club moved out of there just about when I joined. A lot of people have
complained about the difference in "control quality" between TEB and CDW.
In my limited experience, I have to agree: TEB always seemed much more
tightly managed than CDW.

I'd guess that one difference is the training volume. TEB has (or had, at
any rate) a fair bit of GA training, but nobody did pattern work there.
They all left for places like CDW, MGJ, for that.

- Andrew

Jay Honeck wrote:

The designation of "Class D" provides the veneer of controlled airspace
without any real substance, and lulls the unwary into a false sense of
security.

The key word here is "unwary". That should never be applicable to a pilot.
That is, no pilot flying should be capable of assuming separation in D
airspace.

So there is no "veneer". We all know from our training: class D is
"unseparated" (a reasonable term, I think {8^) airspace.

- Andrew

"Andrew Gideon" wrote in message
gonline.com...

So there is no "veneer". We all know from our training: class D is
"unseparated" (a reasonable term, I think {8^) airspace.


As long as you're talking about VFR/VFR or VFR/IFR separation.

On Fri, 14 May 2004 13:44:35 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:

The tower at a class D airport does not provide much in the way of traffic
separation. They schedule takeoffs and landings and that is about it.

Which is why, IMHO, Class D airspace is the single most dangerous airspace
around.

The designation of "Class D" provides the veneer of controlled airspace
without any real substance, and lulls the unwary into a false sense of
security.


You hit that nail right on the head. The combination of pilots'
unrealistic expectations and poor position reporting is a recipe for
disaster. Add an inattentive controller in and you have an exciting
invironment. "D" for danger.

Rich Russell