Downright Scary...

I'd also wonder about the CFI that apparently did not impress upon
this newbie PPL about the dangers of Tstorms.

"Blanche" wrote in message

.....charges of attempted
involuntary manslaughter.

"Attempted......... involuntary........ manslaughter"

Think about this.

So it's best to err on the side of the possibility that might well kill an
unsuspecting person?


Yes.

The freedom to fly is the freedom to put people in danger, the freedom to make
mistakes that can kill, and the freedom to make bad decisions. With this
freedom comes responsibility - the responsibility to minimize the danger so
much as is reasonable under the circumstances, This responsibility belongs to
the Pilot In Command. It is what being the Pilot In Command means. It is not
to be minimized, lest it get minimized on all of us.

I am not arguing to do =nothing= and walk away as if this were an acceptable
decision with an expected outcome. This was (after the fact) clearly an
unacceptable decision with a fortunate outcome. I emphasize "after the fact"
because every one of us has a different level of skill, judgement, experience,
equipment, and risk tolerance, and it is not up to somebody else to make risk
decisions for us. There are too many people who are waiting in the wings to do
just that. Of all people, passengers are not the ones to be trusted with these
kinds of decisions (despite the fact that every now and then the passenger is
right and the pilot is wrong).

What I am advocating is to ensure that any conversations or actions take place
with the pilot, either directly or through channels designed for that (such as
the Aviation Safety Counselor). Putting the passenger in the equation will
only mess things up, as he or she is (generally) not in a position to
understand the nuances of the decisions being made.


I wouldn't characterize it as a mere "mistake" to deliberately continue VFR
in IMC, and to deliberately continue into thunderstorms (and to do so with
an unsuspecting, non-pilot passenger, no less).


It is a mistake. IT is a mistake in judgement. A big one to be sure, but so
are some of the icing issues being discussed in another thread right now.
Flying an airplane that is not icing certified into known or forecast icing
conditions is a huge mistake in judgement, and can cause death to the pilot,
passengers, and people below. At least some will argue that. Some will argue
differently. Should the passengers be told how reckless =that= is?


If my passengers had been in serious danger, I would certainly want them to
know about it.


.... and you would tell them, wouldn't you? (not do do so would be to, as you
say, "trick them into continuing to fly
with me by witholding such critical information from them;")You wouldn't want
other people to tell them what an ass you were in the sky - you'd want your own
opportunity to do so.


Whatever choice she would make if she knew what had almost happened to her,
it's her right to decide--not her husband's, and not yours or mine.


Neither of us is making that choice for her.

Jose



--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

On the other hand, he could be brought up on charges of attempted
involuntary manslaughter.


So could all of us that makes a poor judgement when flying. While we're out
flinging charges, we should charge the CFI with neglegence in teaching the
pilot, the FAA for allowing him to be certificated before he was ready, the
controller for giving him a vector to the airport rather than a stern lecture
and a command to do a 180...

We speak as if we value the freedom to fly - and to do all the things that we
do in the air. Well, the freedom to say "no" is meaningless without the
freedom to say "yes".

Jose


--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

Thanks for the story, Jay.

(Part of me is dumb with admiration for the pilot!)

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! weblog www.vivabush.org

Scared the you know what out of me reading that. I too am still a low
hr pilot, even after ten years. I too have made my share of mistakes.
Thank God I'm still alive.

I had an engine out once in a R22 on my way back from Hagerstown to
Frederick, MD in a round about kind of a way. I full autoed it onto
10+ inches of snow on someones farm near Camp David. My first real
emergency, and I somehow executed a smooth flare that my CFI would
have been really proud of. I never did get it that good w/ the CFI
onboard, and there was never a full down auto. I didn't perceive it
as an emergency at the time, neither did my passenger. He thought
that the first couple of seconds of the auto was a little startling,
but did reallize it was an auto. He thought that it supposed to be
quiet when you land and only wondered why we landed in the field. I
explained to him that the engine went out on its own. He too didn't
reallize the danger at the time. I checked out the engine, started it
up again and it ran smoothly. I concluded that it was carburator
icing. Instead of hiking a couple of miles to the farm house in deep
snow to call the FBO, We took the easy way out. We flew the chopper
back to Frederick, MD. I told Bill at Advanced Helicopters about the
engine out and that I may have oversped the rotors doing the auto. He
said he would have it looked at.

In retrospect, I should have walked to the farm house and had someone
at Advanced Heli with more experience come get the chopper. I was
real stupid to have flown it again that day. Anything could have been
wrong with it. The bearings could have been shot from the overspeed.
I could have been back in the air when it failed.

Bryan "The Monk" Chaisone

Isn't this the same kind of bozo that would be the first to sue if he
survived the crash?



"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:JSmGc.14184$JR4.8572@attbi_s54...
Whilst supping a cold one with friends at our hangar not long ago, a
short-lived yet intense summer storm blew through. High winds, heavy
rain,
and impressive lightning caused us to lower the door a tad, but didn't
deter
us from our appointed beers.

Right as the storm passed, we watched in amazement as a Skyhawk entered
downwind for Rwy 12. We all commented how we were glad not to have been in
that poor shmuck's shoes, and then returned to our conversation.

A few minutes later our hotel courtesy van went zipping past, obviously on
the way to pick up our wayward pilot. We toasted my night manager as he
went roaring by, and did it again as he drove back with our new guests, en
route back to the hotel...

The next morning I sought out our brave and stalwart guests, and was
surprised to meet a newly minted Private Pilot, off on his first long
cross
country trip in a rented 172 with his wife. He nonchalantly mentioned the
"rough ride" into Iowa City, but soon the conversation drifted to local
attractions and our theme suites.

I then turned my attention to his wife, and asked her how she had enjoyed
the flight. She confessed that it had been pretty scary, so we started
giving her the usual pep-talk about how the bumps really aren't anything
to
worry about, and how turbulence can be bothersome but not really
dangerous.
We were pretty well along into our speechifying about how safe flying is,
when she stopped all conversation by saying "Things got pretty spooky when
we couldn't see anything....I just covered my eyes and couldn't look out!"

We kind of looked at each other, stunned, and asked her what she meant.

She went on to say that about 15 miles out, just past the nearby town (and
airport) of Tipton, IA, their windshield had gone completely white -- and
then almost immediately totally black. It was at this point where she
covered her eyes in fright, and couldn't look.

She then mentioned how her husband had called Cedar Rapids approach, and
how
they had "given them directions to Iowa City."

Uncomfortable silence followed this revelation, as we realized how close
to
dying this poor woman had come. Not wanting to scare her any more than
necessary, I asked what Cedar Rapids had done. She replied that the
controller had asked what their intentions were, since conditions were
rock-solid IFR with thunderstorms from their present position all the way
into Iowa City. She said her husband had announced his intention to land
in
Iowa City, and that the controller then gave them a vector towards the
airport.

At this point our hapless pilot piped up about how he had "flown
instruments" down the heading until they popped into the clear, pretty
much
right over the airport. This must have been when we spotted him on
downwind.

I told them both how lucky they were, and left it at that. After all,
they
were here for a good time, and it wasn't my position as innkeeper to be
lecturing my guests. In fact, I didn't even mention the "Tipton
Towers" --
twin TV transmission towers that reach some 1700 feet into the sky right
near Tipton.

However, this man's complacence in the face of stormy IFR conditions is
exactly what we all read about in the NTSB reports each month. The guy
over-flew a perfectly good airport (Tipton) in order to fly head-long into
the clouds, a thunderstorm, potential death, and (almost coincidentally)
Iowa City. He had risked his life (and his wife's life) in order to
penetrate a fast-moving, short-lived storm, just so he could get here in
time for...dinner?

God was on his side that day. Downright scary, I tell you.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...
The freedom to fly is the freedom to put people in danger, the freedom to
make
mistakes that can kill, and the freedom to make bad decisions.

Yes, but the passenger's freedom to fly--or to stay on the
ground--includes the freedom to make an informed choice about the risks
involved, and to know what risks they've actually been exposed to.

If my passengers had been in serious danger, I would certainly want them
to
know about it.

... and you would tell them, wouldn't you? (not do do so would be to, as
you
say, "trick them into continuing to fly
with me by witholding such critical information from them;")

Yes, of course. Honesty with passengers about their safety takes precedence
over ego and over any desire to have them fly with me again. If the
positions were reversed and I were the unsuspecting non-pilot passenger (or
if someone I care about were some pilot's unsuspecting passenger), I would
certainly hope to be treated with honesty and with respect for my informed
consent. So that's how I would treat others. What could be more basic?

--Gary

More likely it would be the wife's family or passenger. If the pilot had
lost control and gone down, I'm sure Cessna (us actually through our cost of
insurance and buying aircraft) would have ended up paying out about
$12,000,000.
--
Roger Long

"Mark T. Mueller" wrote in message
...
Isn't this the same kind of bozo that would be the first to sue if he
survived the crash?

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:JTnGc.31291$7t3.22798@attbi_s51...
Later in the conversation, however, I did go into my usual spiel about
spatial disorientation, how my old primary instructor demonstrated it to
me
(at night, over Lake Michigan, with my panel covered), and how dangerous
it
is. Hopefully he/she got the message that they were in grave danger.

If his instrument-flying skills are good (and it sounds like they are),
spatial disorientation may have been the least of his worries. CFIT and
extreme turbulence may have been the more serious risks.

Our attitude and obtuse comments, in combination with his wife's
instinctive
fear, may have done the job of quietly kicking him in the pants for
subjecting his wife to such an ordeal.

Or maybe not. It's hard to tell.

Yup. Since the passenger's reaction was to keep her eyes closed, it sounds
more like she judged her fear to be irrational, and was just protecting
herself from the fearful stimulus (much the way some passengers close their
eyes if the plane banks thirty degrees). If she'd really understood the
danger, she'd probably have taken a more purposeful action instead, like
asking for a course reversal or a divorce.

--Gary