The next attack (On Topic)

If we aren't to fight back, for fear of creating more terrorists, what are
we to do?


Sometimes "nothing" is the right answer. Sometimes, we must just accept that
the price of freedom is risk. Sure, our nation is a colander. But to seal it
up as tightly as would be necessary to stop terrorism would be to suffocate it.

The war is not with people - it is with ideas. But ideas are what we claim to
let free.

Jose



--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

You make several good points, Roger -- but I didn't seen any viable
alternatives in your post.

If we aren't to fight back, for fear of creating more terrorists, what are
we to do?

To get an idea of what we're up against, i suggest reading the following link:

http://www.nationalreview.com/commen...0407020030.asp

They are not after us for what we do, but for what we are, and unless we are
willing to put Brittany Spears in a Burka and bow toward Mecca 5 times a day,
there isn[t going to be peace short of victory.


--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

On 11 Jul 2004 12:40:13 GMT, Wdtabor wrote:

They are not after us for what we do, but for what we are, and unless we are
willing to put Brittany Spears in a Burka

If she does not stop singing then this will not help very much. :-)

#m

--
http://makeashorterlink.com/?Q1FE524C8

On 11 Jul 2004 12:40:13 GMT, Wdtabor wrote:

They are not after us for what we do, but for what we are, and unless we are
willing to put Brittany Spears in a Burka

And the problem with this is...what?

(*snicker*)

"Wdtabor" wrote in message
...
You make several good points, Roger -- but I didn't seen any viable
alternatives in your post.

If we aren't to fight back, for fear of creating more terrorists, what
are
we to do?

To get an idea of what we're up against, i suggest reading the following
link:

http://www.nationalreview.com/commen...0407020030.asp


The problem is hugely more complicated that that.

If you want to read something that is actually helful to this debate, try:

http://www.nupi.no/IPS/filestore/Root_Causes_report.pdf

This is a report from an international Conference on terrorisim in June 2003
in Oslo, and included American and Israeli particpants, among others.

You need to read the whole thing, but the finding on "religion" as a basis
of terrorism as quoted from the report:

"Suicide terrorism is not caused by religion (or more specifically Islam) as
such....
Many suicide terrorists around the world are secular, or belong to other
religions than Islam. Suicide terrorists are motivated mainly by political
goals –
usually to end foreign occupation or domestic domination by a different
ethnic
group. Their “martyrdom” is, however, frequently legitimised and glorified
with
reference to religious ideas and values."

In article le.rogers.com,
"Icebound" writes:


http://www.nationalreview.com/commen...0407020030.asp


The problem is hugely more complicated that that.

If you want to read something that is actually helful to this debate, try:

http://www.nupi.no/IPS/filestore/Root_Causes_report.pdf

This is a report from an international Conference on terrorisim in June 2003
in Oslo, and included American and Israeli particpants, among others.

You need to read the whole thing, but the finding on "religion" as a basis
of terrorism as quoted from the report:


I read it. It is just the usual apologist, 'it has to be someone else's fault'
claptrap.

It can be reasonably argued that Islam, in and of itself, is not the cause of
terrorism, but the religion is uniquely succeptable to being siezed upon by
facist ideologues and used as the unifying identity that a fascist expansion
requires.

Muslim holy literature, particularly Sura 9:29, preaches a superiority, and
worse, an entitlement, attached to believers. The Koran itself authorizes
conversion by the sword for pagans and idolators and demands tribute from
'people of the book' (Christians and Jews) for living at peace within Muslim
spheres of influence.

Add to that the lack of a Muslim 'Pope' to settle religious questions, and any
fascist ideologue can waive the Koran and call for Jihad against some presumed
infidel offense and there is no one to state absolutley that he is wrong.

Look around the world and point to a single place where a Muslim theocracy
lives at peace with a weaker non-Muslim neighbor. You can't, there isn't one.
The UN tracks over 130 trouble spots where recurring political violence is a
problem. 6 do not involve Muslims. Are those all cases of discrimination
against Muslims? Are the Phillipines subject to terrorism because they somehow
interferred in Palestine?

The West in general, and the US in particular, tends to introspection, and
looks inward for the source of all wrong. We always ask "What did we do wrong
to deserve their hatred?" Muslims never ask that question. In any dispute, they
are right BECAUSE they have submitted to the will of Allah and we are wrong
because we have not. Understand that one thing and you can understand our
enemy.

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

Very good points all.

To answer Jay's question, we hit them with a resolve never before seen in
war.

Islam needs to be beaten back into the cave it slithered out of and kept
there for the next 10,000 years.

Islam is the enemy and we are in a war for civilization. Make no mistake
about that.

This war is a test of will. Theirs against ours. So far we're running it
like a 5th Avenue PR campaign and they're running it like it should be run.

We're applying Western values to this fight and that is the biggest mistake
of all. We try to talk things out, we try to reason. Those tactics will
not work this time.

We have to fight them on their own terms. No quarter. No mercy. They all
die. Anything less than total commitment is capitulation.

Flame away boys and girls. It's the only way and in your heart of hearts
you know it.

BillC





"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
Why is this on topic for this forum? Face it, even if the next terrorist
action is carried out with trained hamsters marching down 42 ND street
with
little explosive backpacks, shutting down general aviation will be a
centerpiece of the response.

and so on...

You make several good points, Roger -- but I didn't seen any viable
alternatives in your post.

If we aren't to fight back, for fear of creating more terrorists, what are
we to do?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

It's a war for civilization all right but the enemy is no more Islam than
Timothy McVeigh was a Christian patriot. This situation is only going to be
resolved when the societies that produce the terrorists change so that there
are no longer large numbers if the disaffected that see terror and
fundamentalism as the only path. These are Islamic societies and nothing
short of sterilizing the ground with nuclear bombs is going to change that.
Terrorism is as abhorrent to true Islam as it is to Christianity. Unless we
are prepared to kill millions to eliminate thousands of terrorists we will
not solve this problem until the Islamic societies become our allies in the
struggle. Your kind of thinking, and just about everything our government
is doing, works directly against this.

The distortions of culture, society, and government in the mideast that lead
to this are largely of our (the West's) doing. The very borders of the
nations were established by Britain and other powers of the time without
regard to ethnic borders that would create stable nations. We threw the
economies and cultures completely out of whack with oil money and tolerated
and supported brutal dictatorships that would keep the oil flowing.

Bin Laden and Sadam themselves are largely creations of the CIA supported
struggle against Russia in Afghanistan and our meddling in the Iran / Iraq
war. We need to accept that our decades of mistakes and meddling have
created a situation in which terrorism is as inevitable as hurricanes. We
don't go into a tizzy of breast beating, changing of society, and
restriction of civil liberties when a hurricane does millions of dollars in
damage and kills many. Hell, we even give the rich folks on the barrier
beaches money to rebuild (until recently). Hurricanes and earthquakes are
not manhood and virility challenges to our leaders so everyone shrugs and
life goes on.

Israel has proved that terrorism can not be eliminated by force even within
a small geographic area where some of the toughest people in the world have
enormous control and decades of understanding the situation on the ground
and the culture they are dealing with. What chance do we have over a huge
area at the end of a long logistical trail when the Pentagon can't even find
enough translators?

This is now an intractable and long term problem that is going to have to be
managed. The solution will take decades and patience. Thinking of
terrorism as something that has to be eliminated before the next election or
we'll need a new president will make true solutions impossible to pursue or
implement. Nothing constructive will happen until Islamic societies start
to function properly in the modern world, leadership in them is supported by
the population at large, and they see themselves as allies with us in the
struggle against terror. Everything being done now is probably being
cheered by Bin Laden.

It's much like trying to glide to a landing spot after an engine out. Pull
back on the yoke and you will land shorter or even stall and crash. Right
now, all the passengers are screaming, "Pull up, pull up!" and big burly
fellows are struggling to the front to try and grab the yoke to pull it back
further. Kerry isn't going to do any better unless he can become the kind
of leader who can calm the passengers and regain control. I don't have a
lot of confidence that he can do that but I'd rather not have a pilot in
this situation who clearly thinks that how hard he pulls back on the yoke is
the test of his leadership.

--
Roger Long

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
It's a war for civilization all right but the enemy is no more Islam than
Timothy McVeigh was a Christian patriot. This situation is only going to
be
resolved when the societies that produce the terrorists change so that
there
are no longer large numbers if the disaffected that see terror and
fundamentalism as the only path. These are Islamic societies and nothing
short of sterilizing the ground with nuclear bombs is going to change
that.
Terrorism is as abhorrent to true Islam as it is to Christianity.

There is considerable evidence to the contrary. It appears that Islam not
only sponsors terrorism, it is a way of life. More than 90% of the world's
wars are being fought in Islamic countries. That says a lot about Islam. All
the so-called 'moderate' Islamic sects and countries provide enormous
amounts of money as well as shelter and support to terrorists.

Quite honestly, I think that nuclear sterilization is an option that should
be explored.

On Fri, 9 Jul 2004 12:01:05 -0700, C J Campbell wrote:

There is considerable evidence to the contrary. It appears that Islam not
only sponsors terrorism, it is a way of life. More than 90% of the world's
wars are being fought in Islamic countries. That says a lot about Islam. All
the so-called 'moderate' Islamic sects and countries provide enormous
amounts of money as well as shelter and support to terrorists.

Quite honestly, I think that nuclear sterilization is an option that should
be explored.


and maybe this will be said to the kids in the middle east:
----------start
There is considerable evidence to the contrary. It appears that the
American idea not only sponsors Christianity, it is a way of life. More
than 90% of the world's wars in the last 200 years are being fought direct
or indirect with the support of America. That says a lot about America. All
the so-called 'moderate' western countries and American allies provide
enormous amounts of money as well as shelter and support the American idea.

Quite honestly, I think that nuclear sterilization is an option that should
be explored.
----------end

you get the point? no? I'm not surprised.

#m

--
Michael Moo Fahrenheit 9/11:
http://www.fahrenheit911.com/