Bad Stories about Plane Purchases

The issue arises over what different people, namely the buyer, the seller,
and each of their mechanics, consider and define "properly repaired",
"completely repaired", "adequately repaired", "repaired by a Brand C or P or
XYZ certified repair station", or "repaired to new condition". None of
those things actually tell you how well it was repaired.

Certain types of damage may go unseen by a mechanic that thinks he's
"properly repairing" the plane, and then those things get covered up by
fuselage skin and may be in locations where inspection plates just don't
allow a good view. It also may be impractical to remove the skin to
properly view the repairs during a pre-buy.

Depending on the type of damage, you may or may not be able to determine how
the airplane was flown. One example would be a replaced or repaired
firewall on a 182. If the plane was consistently and repeatedly landed hard
on it's nose wheel that the firewall buckled, what else might be slightly
"tweaked" in the engine mounts, landing gear, or airframe??

IMHO, damage history, unless completely explained and repairs well
documented and "inspectable" give me a certain "fear of the unknown" and the
price should be adjusted accordingly.

Jim Burns


"tony roberts" wrote in message
news:nospam-4DDD2A.22064411082004@shawnews...
Hi John

One thing that I don't understand, and hopefully someone here will
enlighten me, is why it is so sacred to have an aircraft that hasn't had
accident damage.
Two of my friends each have aircraft that had accident damage over 30
years ago.
So What?
They have flown beautifully for more than 30 years since the accident -
so what is the big deal? I absolutely don't get it. - It would be
different if the accident was 5 flight hours ago - but these are more
than a major TBO away.

Tony


In article ,
Jon Kraus wrote:

I am looking into purchasing my own plane... I think that I am pretty
aware of the costs (as much as a non-owner can be). I would like to
hear from those of you who have unfortunately have had a bad (expensive
or otherwise)experience with a plane purchase. I will also post for good
experiences. Thanks !!

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
(possible Mooney buyer)





--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Almost Instrument
Cessna 172H C-GICE


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tony roberts wrote:

Two of my friends each have aircraft that had accident damage over 30
years ago. So What?

You are quite correct. Properly repaired accident damage is no problem, and the
longer it's been since the repair, the less important it is. Unless, as you say, the
damage is recent, it's just a tool that unscrupulous buyers use to try to talk the
price down.

George Patterson
If you want to know God's opinion of money, just look at the people
he gives it to.

Please clarify your statements.

What do you mean by "unscrupulous buyer" and that last bit about
"God's opinion about money".

Seems you may have your "knickers in a bundle"

Paul

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message ...
tony roberts wrote:

Two of my friends each have aircraft that had accident damage over 30
years ago. So What?

You are quite correct. Properly repaired accident damage is no problem, and the
longer it's been since the repair, the less important it is. Unless, as you say, the
damage is recent, it's just a tool that unscrupulous buyers use to try to talk the
price down.

George Patterson
If you want to know God's opinion of money, just look at the people
he gives it to.

Paul wrote:

Please clarify your statements.

What do you mean by "unscrupulous buyer" and that last bit about
"God's opinion about money".

Unscrupulous means people without scruples (look it up). Someone who attempts to
reduce the price based on a 30-year-old damage history has none. As to the quote,
it's an old Irish saying. Live with it.

George Patterson
If you want to know God's opinion of money, just look at the people
he gives it to.

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...
Unscrupulous means people without scruples (look it up).
Someone who attempts to reduce the price based on a
30-year-old damage history has none.

Only the seller can control the price. A buyer who tries to
"unscrupulously" control the price will get outbid by someone else.

I can think of ways a buyer can be unscrupulous, but trying to negotiate a
lower price based on information the *seller* provided or which is
documented as true hardly seems unscrupulous to me. The seller is free to
accept or reject the buyer's logic, as they see fit.

Pete

One thing that I don't understand, and hopefully someone here will
enlighten me, is why it is so sacred to have an aircraft that hasn't had
accident damage.

Our plane had a bad landing accident when it was just a few months out of
the Piper factory, way back in 1974. It was repaired at a Piper service
center, and has never been damaged since.

I'm sure that incident adversely affected the resale price for the first
decade or so after the accident -- but it certainly hasn't had any impact
since.

At the pre-buy my A&P looked at the logs, looked at the plane, said "hmph",
and never mentioned it again.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

tony roberts wrote in message news:nospam-4DDD2A.22064411082004@shawnews...

One thing that I don't understand, and hopefully someone here will
enlighten me, is why it is so sacred to have an aircraft that hasn't had
accident damage.

Karma. Any 172 that survives 5000 hours of rental use without a good
pranging must have gotten an extra coat of magic pixie dust at the
factory.

Two of my friends each have aircraft that had accident damage over 30
years ago.
So What?
They have flown beautifully for more than 30 years since the accident -
so what is the big deal? I absolutely don't get it. - It would be
different if the accident was 5 flight hours ago - but these are more
than a major TBO away.

Shh! If everybody starts figuring out that a modest scrape a few
decades ago doesn't make a plane unflyable a lot of the good deals
will disappear.

In Alaska the definition of an salable PA-18 is one on which you can
still make out the registration plate. They'll happily rebuild the
whole plane around it with 90% new parts. But hey, it'll still have a
major damage history.

-cwk.

The jury is still out on our recent purchase, but all-in-all, it was a
good, but stressful experience. The stressor being that, besides a
house, this was my biggest single outlay of money ever. No matter how
good your prebuy, there is always potential for a major disaster after
the plane becomes yours. What will you do if you blow an engine early
on? My partner and I decided that, if the worst happened, the plane
would have to sit for a while while we saved money for a new engine.
This was a risk we looked at and decided up front that we were willing
to take.

Expect the prebuy negotiations, inspections, and paperwork to take a
lot longer and cost more than you anticipate, especially if you are
buying from a private owner. We filled out the FAA Bill-of-Sale form,
but not the Request-for-Registration form, which meant we weren't
quite legal for a couple of days. These forms are virtually identical,
so we thought we were good. One place where going through a
trustworthy broker would be nice! Also, we were doing the purchase
from a private owner, long distance, who was hard to get a hold of.
Minor questions often took several days to get ironed out. Negotiate
with the insurance company on coverage and required hours as well if
you are stepping up in aircraft class.

Have the conditions of the purchase and contigencies SPELLED OUT in
your prepurchase agreement. We jumped the gun and sent the owner a
deposit before we actually filled out the agreement, which made
getting money for several prepurchase deficiencies difficult. Despite
some deficiencies that the prepurchase revealed, we decided the plane
was still what we wanted and in our price range. If we had been
willing to walk away, we might have been able to find something for
slightly less money, fewer problems, better equipment, etc..., but we
decided at the time that it was "close enough". We spent 6 months to
get "close enough".

Be prepared to spend some money right after you get your plane. We
found the following on our prebuy:

1. No current weight and balance: $450
2. Fixed display on #2 NAV: $300
3. Corroded overhead speaker wi $100
4. Installed new magnetic compass: $100
5. Pitot-static/transponder check: $180
6. Altimeter failed during #5: $750

Several other problems that we haven't fixed yet, but will need
attention.

For the money we spent, we thought we should be able to get something
closer to perfect, but it wasn't in the cards.

Vic

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 11:50:27 GMT, Jon Kraus
wrote:

I am looking into purchasing my own plane... I think that I am pretty
aware of the costs (as much as a non-owner can be). I would like to
hear from those of you who have unfortunately have had a bad (expensive
or otherwise)experience with a plane purchase. I will also post for good
experiences. Thanks !!

I had a bad experience. I purchased a complex plane that looked good,
and had a good pre-buy inspection (2 days) by a mechanic I trust. 260
hrs SMOH by a local shop, good compression, decent radios, and the
logs looked good etc, etc. There were a few squawks that were fixed
right away and I thought things were good. Six months after purchase
I took a trip out west and on the way back the #3 jug came loose.
(All the nuts/studs on the bottom of the cylinder were gone.) Landed
in Co (AKO) and had the engine removed and shipped to a local (to me)
shop with a good reputation for repair. Upon tear down the shop
determined that the wrong pistons were installed (O-320 pistons in an
O-360) a bolt at the accessory drive was missing, the nuts on the
cylinder studs were mis-torqued, and other assorted items had not been
properly done at the last overhaul. I opted for a complete overhaul
at that time with all new cylinders/pistons etc. I went out with my
mechanic and we installed the engine and started back east. I did 3-4
circuits well above pattern altitude and turned east. A few minutes
later I experienced an engine over speed, turned around and landed.
The prop shop determined later that the governor had been misassembled
at the last overhaul. This was repaired and the flight home was
uneventful. At the next annual I decided to get the prop and governor
overhauled by a different shop. The prop hub and one blade failed
inspection so I opted for a new 3 blade. At 130 hours after the 2nd
engine overhaul I found metal in the filter, and when the engine was
disassembled #1 cylinder had most of the boss that the wrist pin goes
thru missing on both sides. Further inspection discovered that the
wrist pin had broken right in the center of the con rod. Off came the
engine and it was sent back to the overhaul shop.

So, the unexpected out of pocket cost so far:

Engine overhaul ~$13k
New prop and governor overhaul ~$8k
Governor overhaul and prop
inspection due to metal in the oil $1300
Engine tear down, repair and R&R ~$4.5k estimated

This adds up to over $26,000 on a $52,000 purchase. I have spent
significant $$ on avionics, and preventative maintenance that I have
not included since this money was my decision to spend. In the last
2.5 years there have been less than 200 hours on the plane. It just
is not airworthy very much of the time.

Lessons learned? Well, if I were to do it again I would never buy a
plane that had a field overhauled engine. I would insist on one that
was done by a major shop. A good pre-buy is a must, but don't count
on it finding all that could be wrong. And finally make sure that you
have plenty of $$ in case things go bad.....

j

Jon Kraus wrote in message .. .
I am looking into purchasing my own plane... I think that I am pretty
aware of the costs (as much as a non-owner can be). I would like to
hear from those of you who have unfortunately have had a bad (expensive
or otherwise)experience with a plane purchase. I will also post for good
experiences. Thanks !!

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
(possible Mooney buyer)

Howdy,

Mine was a 66 M20E

If I was going to do it again, I wouldn't bother with a buyers agent.
The sales process is about 3 pieces of paper, and a sales contract.
Definately not worth the percentage.

The prepurchase: BE THERE, and ASK QUESTIONS!

Don't even think about proceeding unless the guy doing the prepurchase
is recommended by another Mooney owner. They are simple for complex
aircraft, but the stuff that fails is different, and just as expensive
to fix. Joe cessna-wrench is not going to check everything that needs
to get checked.

Have a pre-purchase contract, and then work an annual into the deal.
The planes going to be all apart anyway, might as well complete the
job.

Logs. All of them. ALL OF THEM. I was niave, and didn't know there was
supposed to be a prop log too. Worthless (assorted creative explitives
deleted) buyers agent didn't say a word about it. Prop came off for
annual and the mechanic told me there was evidence of a prop strike.
Nothing in the airframe log about it, no wonder there was no prop log.

The prop TSO is a bigger deal than you might think. The existing
blades may or may not be salvagable at the next overhaul. Several
grand will be in play when all is said and done.

There was an expensive control rods AD that came out a few years ago.
STC fixed it. It will save you $100 at least yearly if it has been
done.

The johnson bar gear is the best LG system in the world IMHO. But
double check the light. It is possible to get it in the -down-
position and NOT locked. You have to jiggle it when this happens, and
more than one person has collapsed a gear because they didn't double
check the light.

Have a hell of a war chest. I'm not kidding. It doesn't take much to
go wrong for that thing to eat you alive. The long term ownership
costs quoted are capitalized over years. But expect 75% of the next
five years costs to show up in years 1 and 2.

I would go with the F model with the johnson bar gear if I was back in
the market. I think that is the best payload/performance/features
combination, with the Super21 being next. Most of the later models are
really 2 place aircraft until you get over the six digit mark.

I like the brittain autopilot. Some folks don't, until they are knee
deep in it and getting behind the curve. Then they are glad they have
it too.

Performance is awesome. People who complain about the ailerons haven't
figured out what the rudder is for yet.

Get a Mooney specific instructor. There are a couple instructors
around the country who train in Mooney's specifically. Don't expect a
brand C driver at your local patch to help you learn all the nuances
of this thing. He will train you WRONG, which is the reason why so
many people whine about how hard they are to land. They fly an orange
like an apple and get miffed when their landings don't squeek.

Figure the insurance companies dual into your numbers. Mine required
20 hours, regardless of the fact that I already had my license. Which
was good, because it does take a bit to learn how to talk to her.

You will become a master of the forward slip, especially when landing
over the proverbial 50 ft tree. She can descend like a meteor with a
little skill. Kindof neat staring at the numbers through the hamburger
window.

-Hope that helps!
-Matt