Renting an airplane? Need Expert FARS Advice??

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message ...
Malcolm Teas wrote:

61.117 Private pilot privileges and limitations: Second in command
of aircraft requiring more than one pilot.

Except as provided in §61.113 of this part, no private pilot may, for
compensation or hire, act as second in command of an aircraft that is
type certificated for more than one pilot, nor may that pilot act as
second in command of such an aircraft that is carrying passengers or
property for compensation or hire.

Few small planes are type certified to require more than one pilot, so it's highly
unlikely that he would be serving as second in command of such a plane. As described,
the flight is not carrying anything for hire, so he wouldn't be doing that either.
This FAR is not applicable to the flight.

61.113 (c) A private pilot may not pay less than the pro rata share of
the operating expenses of a flight with passengers, provided the
expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental fees.

Seems that flying back to the west coast would be compensation and
less than your pro-rata share of the flight. Since you're flying
alone then, your pro-rate share is 100%.

Since he's flying alone, there are no passengers, so this FAR doesn't apply either.

Sec. 61.113 Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in
command.^M
^M
(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of this section,
no^M
person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in
command of^M
an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation
or hire;^M
nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command
of an^M
aircraft.^M

If he flys back on his own, it would be hard for him to not be PIC.
The FAA has busted people for being able to fly without paying before
(. They consider that compensation. Example.. if the FBO asks you to
fly a plane down to another airport for annual, that is always
considered commercial. That's a good reason for CFIs to keep their 2nd
class medical current.

-Roebrt (with current 2nd class medical)

"Robert M. Gary" wrote:

If he flys back on his own, it would be hard for him to not be PIC.
The FAA has busted people for being able to fly without paying before
(. They consider that compensation.

As I said before, the FAA has regarded flight time as compensation, but, so far, they
have only done so in cases in which the pilot was competing with professionals at a
job normally done for hire. The infamous case was a pilot who was flying a glider tow
plane to build time. So far, the FAA has never violated a pilot for the sort of
flight which NW_PILOT is considering.

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.

Does this mean that if a private pilot has a friend who owns a 172, and the
friend allows the private pilot to fly the 172 whenever the private pilot
wants, and the friend does not charge the private pilot for the flight time,
then the private pilot is in violation?

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
om...
"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...
Malcolm Teas wrote:

61.117 Private pilot privileges and limitations: Second in command
of aircraft requiring more than one pilot.

Except as provided in §61.113 of this part, no private pilot may, for
compensation or hire, act as second in command of an aircraft that is
type certificated for more than one pilot, nor may that pilot act as
second in command of such an aircraft that is carrying passengers or
property for compensation or hire.

Few small planes are type certified to require more than one pilot, so
it's highly
unlikely that he would be serving as second in command of such a plane.
As described,
the flight is not carrying anything for hire, so he wouldn't be doing
that either.
This FAR is not applicable to the flight.

61.113 (c) A private pilot may not pay less than the pro rata share of
the operating expenses of a flight with passengers, provided the
expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental fees.

Seems that flying back to the west coast would be compensation and
less than your pro-rata share of the flight. Since you're flying
alone then, your pro-rate share is 100%.

Since he's flying alone, there are no passengers, so this FAR doesn't
apply either.

Sec. 61.113 Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in
command.^M
^M
(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of this section,
no^M
person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in
command of^M
an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation
or hire;^M
nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command
of an^M
aircraft.^M

If he flys back on his own, it would be hard for him to not be PIC.
The FAA has busted people for being able to fly without paying before
(. They consider that compensation. Example.. if the FBO asks you to
fly a plane down to another airport for annual, that is always
considered commercial. That's a good reason for CFIs to keep their 2nd
class medical current.

-Roebrt (with current 2nd class medical)

"NW_PILOT" wrote in message
...
Ok, Fellow Pilots Here Is The Situation:

"A Private Pilot wants to rent an airplane and this person wants to fly it
from the west coast to the east coast but not back. This person would like
you to come along for the trip and dose not want to be reimbursed for any
part of the rental for time I act as PIC during the trip. This person also
is willing to pay for the aircraft rental for how ever many hours it takes
to get the airplane back home. This person would not be paying anyone for
acting as PIC just for the airplane rental! Would this be legal for a
private pilot to do? or would one have to pay your equal share on the way
there and all expenses on the way back home? or just pass on the trip"

Couldn't you pay your share for the way back and come to some
other arrangement on how she pays you back?

Paul

"Paul Sengupta" wrote in message

Couldn't you pay your share for the way back and come to some
other arrangement on how she pays you back?

Damn. Was drinking coffee when I read that. :

-c

NW_PILOT wrote:
[snip the details]

My little head is telling me to go for it, but my big head is saying stop
wait (must be my old age) get some advice from the people that know more
than the FBO on the FARS and legal aspects before making a decision.

Then don't ask here. Call AOPA legal services.

I really would like to go the hotel stays would even be fun. What would you

And for my second recommendation, call Dr. Ruth.

troll or a misogynist, not sure which.

NW_PILOT wrote:

"A Private Pilot wants to rent an airplane and this person wants to fly it
from the west coast to the east coast but not back. This person would like
you to come along for the trip and dose not want to be reimbursed for any
part of the rental for time I act as PIC during the trip. This person also
is willing to pay for the aircraft rental for how ever many hours it takes
to get the airplane back home. This person would not be paying anyone for
acting as PIC just for the airplane rental! Would this be legal for a
private pilot to do? or would one have to pay your equal share on the way
there and all expenses on the way back home? or just pass on the trip"

Well, she's going to be flying out, so the Feds can't really expect you to have to
pay your way for that part -- you're a passenger. As for the trip back, the FAA has
been known to violate people for flying other people's aircraft for free, but only in
cases in which the pilot's were in competition with professionals (glider towplanes,
for example).

Me, I would let her pay the bills. I also wouldn't talk about it very much, just in
case.

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 03:14:44 -0700, "NW_PILOT"
wrote:


Listen to your little head! Listen to your little head! Don't worry
about the FARs. Losing your license for 30 days would be a small
price to pay if its really gonna be that good a trip! g Besides if
you explain this to any male inspector, I'll bet he turns green with
envy, pats you on the back, and keeps it for back room discussions
only.

Seriously, it wouldn't seem to me that you are agreegiously breaking
the law. What if you bought a hotel room, or food, or something? All
of this should be counted toward expenses. As someone else stated,
call AOPA for the best response.

Good Luck!
z

"zatatime" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 03:14:44 -0700, "NW_PILOT"
wrote:


Listen to your little head! Listen to your little head! Don't worry
about the FARs.

No way that always gets me introuble.

Losing your license for 30 days would be a small
price to pay if its really gonna be that good a trip! g Besides if
you explain this to any male inspector, I'll bet he turns green with
envy, pats you on the back, and keeps it for back room discussions
only.


Its been almost 3 weeks since I have flown because of dental problems and
its been killing me. No way could I go 30 day's being told by someone else I
cannot fly.


Seriously, it wouldn't seem to me that you are agreegiously breaking
the law. What if you bought a hotel room, or food, or something? All
of this should be counted toward expenses. As someone else stated,
call AOPA for the best response.

Ill call the fsdo and aopa see what they have to say


Good Luck!
z

zatatime wrote in message . ..
On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 03:14:44 -0700, "NW_PILOT"
wrote:

As someone else stated,
call AOPA for the best response.

The only problem with AOPA in situations like this is that they are
going to give you the opinion of the FSDO up there. These types of
situations are always very different from FSDO to FSDO, since there is
no federal guidance. Case in point, there is a guy at our flying club
who holds a private ticket and started a company to sell airborne
photos of businesses. The Sac FSDO told him he's ok to fly for his
company with a private. The FSDO in the bay said no. So he's ok as
long as he doesn't get too close to the bay. Since its the local FSDO
that does the enforcement, its best to talk to them. They tend to not
like hearing, "But AOPA told me I could do it...".

-Robert