secret advice

"houstondan" wrote in message
oups.com...
ok...as to flying c-150/172 type aircraft, what can you do, really,
that's fun and won't hurt the airframe? at 80mph, can you really hurt
the machine with full control deflection? i guess that's what i'm
asking ... how much can you "yank and bank" these things before bad
things happen? i can get a real good feel for the slow flight
characteristics by trying it at altitude. a can't think of any way to
test airframe without testing to destruction....mine. exactly how do
you do those rolls???

i know i'm begging to hear a lot of "never do that", well-meaning
warnings but there has to be some tribal wisdom on "how much can you
do?"

According to my logbook, in N8376M, a C-150 Aerobat, I've done loops,
Immelmans, snap-rolls, slow rolls, spins, hammerheads, and Cuban-S. In a
glider, I've done loops and slow rolls.
Every solo manuever was preceded by at least two and most of the
time three exercises with an instructor.
By the way, the spin is the only manuever initiated at less than
full-throttle and 120K. You can do a lot of yanking and banking (most often
resulting in a spin) at lower speeds, but the rest require significant
energy.
I did enough aerobatics to determine that I wasn't ready to invest
the $$$$$$ in the kind of airplane required to pursue the sport. It was fun,
there was some excitement, but my sweetie pie.... well, let's just say she
took a dim view.
Dig into the FARs and find the sections that relate to more than
60-degree bank and 15(?)-degree pitch, before you do anything.

Mike is absolutely correct.

When you perform a properly executed barrel roll you should feel 2 to 3 g's.
This would be 1-2 g's more than normal.

In this case 'normal' is considered 1g, which as Mike explained what we feel
in unaccelerated flight, just like what you normally feel while sitting in a
chair at your computer.

I worded my post incorrectly and should have said "if performed properly,
you may well not pull more than 2 gs."

Barrel rolls are not difficult by any means, however if you have never done
one and you pull back to much in the wrong place, you will be far exceeding
Vna, and possibly Vne before you can say "whoops".

PJ

============================================
Here's to the duck who swam a lake and never lost a feather,
May sometime another year, we all be back together.
JJW
============================================

"mike regish" wrote in message
news:IMWwd.281811$R05.44863@attbi_s53...
You will always pull more than 1 g coming out of a roll. If you don't pull
it coming out of the roll, you will have to pull more than 1 g at some
point
to come out of the resulting dive unless you want to hit the ground. You
can
stay well within the limits if the airframe, but you can go beyond them
pretty easily, too. 1 G is unaccelerated flight-either straight and level
or
in a steady climb or descent. You have to pull up slightly to begin the
roll
and you will go to less than 1 G when you're inverted to more than 1 G
when
you roll upright and return to level flight.

I did some aerobatics in a Decathlon and what surprised me the most doing
my
first barrel roll was how slow it was. I thought I would just whip around
it
and be done with it, but it took some time to get all the way around. Even
snap rolls were pretty slow. This would no doubt be longer in a 172 with
what I'm pretty sure is a significantly slower roll rate than a Decathlon.
It's the reason I won't try them in my Tripacer. That would be WAY slow
going around and would probably result in more G's coming out.

mike regish


"PJ Hunt" wrote in message
...

As for the roll, depending on what type of roll you're performing, you
may
well be not pulling more than 1G at anytime if done properly.

Of course I'm not suggesting that you go out and test this.

PJ

We used to teach spins in the 150/152. If you haven't done 'em you should...

"houstondan" wrote in message oups.com...
ok...as to flying c-150/172 type aircraft, what can you do, really,
that's fun and won't hurt the airframe? at 80mph, can you really hurt
the machine with full control deflection? i guess that's what i'm
asking ... how much can you "yank and bank" these things before bad
things happen? i can get a real good feel for the slow flight
characteristics by trying it at altitude. a can't think of any way to
test airframe without testing to destruction....mine. exactly how do
you do those rolls???

i know i'm begging to hear a lot of "never do that", well-meaning
warnings but there has to be some tribal wisdom on "how much can you
do?"


dan

absolutely. best i can tell, so many instructors and students got
mashed that they took spin training out . having said that, it's on
my list for very soon. probably the next couple of weeks.

dan

Yeah, they took spin training out. Teach you how to recover before
agravating the stall into a spin.

So here I am doing one of my last solo practice runs before the check
ride. Well, it *was* a tired old bird (C152) that had just gotten a new
rebuilt (20 hours). T/O Departure stall practice and I got the plane
*out of coordinated flight*, firewalled the throttle just as I dropped
the nose.

Flash of blue/white, sudden stars and then Green, Brown, Grey, Green,
Black, Brown.... and upside down (or so it seemed) and I had a headache
(bashed my head on the door frame).

Boy was I glad my father talked me though spin recovery years earlier.
Boy was I glad I had read the book on standard spin recovery. Recovered
at 3/4 turn, thottle off and 135Knotts (145 is VNE) at start of pull
out. Level at 1100AGL, had started at about 2300AGL.

I had to fly around for about 30 minutes just to calm down so I could
land.

I think spin training needs to be done, if nothing more than while on
the ground explaining what you have to do to survive to talk about it.
Later,
Steve.T
PP ASEL/Instrument

"houstondan" wrote in message
oups.com...
ok...as to flying c-150/172 type aircraft, what can you do, really,
that's fun and won't hurt the airframe? at 80mph, can you really hurt
the machine with full control deflection? i guess that's what i'm
asking ... how much can you "yank and bank" these things before bad
things happen? i can get a real good feel for the slow flight
characteristics by trying it at altitude. a can't think of any way to
test airframe without testing to destruction....mine. exactly how do
you do those rolls???

i know i'm begging to hear a lot of "never do that", well-meaning
warnings but there has to be some tribal wisdom on "how much can you
do?"


dan

Flight instruction isn't that expensive compared to the value of your butt
or the damage a dished roll can do to an airplane. Find a CFI within a
reasonable distance who'll show you how to do a roll in a Citabria or
Decathlon. An hour of instruction should be all it takes. Afterwards, if
you're dumb enough to do that stuff in your Cessna (I hope it is yours, as
it would be a really ****ty thing to do with someone elses (or a rental)
airplane), at least you'll have reduced your chances of hurting yourself.

KB

houstondan wrote:



3. what's at laporte?

Harvey & Rihn Aviation is on the east side of the field. They have been
doing spin training and aerobatic stuff since before "windsock" in its
latest incarnation came to be. Havent taken training at either so I cant
comment on quality of either.


Dave

"mike regish" wrote in message
news:IMWwd.281811$R05.44863@attbi_s53...
I did some aerobatics in a Decathlon and what surprised me the most doing
my first barrel roll was how slow it was. I thought I would just whip
around it and be done with it, but it took some time to get all the way
around. Even snap rolls were pretty slow. This would no doubt be longer in
a 172 with what I'm pretty sure is a significantly slower roll rate than a
Decathlon. It's the reason I won't try them in my Tripacer. That would be
WAY slow going around and would probably result in more G's coming out.

mike regish


I dunno Mike,
I always felt my TriPacer had a pretty snappy roll rate. It surely felt
quicker than a Skyhawk. I never tried rolling it tho, nor would I recommend
it for other reasons.

I watched a (very skilled) pilot roll a Champ, now that was slow! ;-)

Marty

I'm sure it could be done, but I wouldn't want to try it in mine. One reason
is that the spin recovery in a Tripacer is different than most planes.
Somebody from the short wing piper club posted it once and it included
ailerons with the spin and just some different procedures than typical.

I'm thinking you're probably one of the first people to ever use the term
"snappy" with regard to the TP tho. ;-)

mike regish

"Marty" wrote in message
news

I dunno Mike,
I always felt my TriPacer had a pretty snappy roll rate. It surely felt
quicker than a Skyhawk. I never tried rolling it tho, nor would I
recommend it for other reasons.

I watched a (very skilled) pilot roll a Champ, now that was slow! ;-)

Marty

wrote in message oups.com...
Yeah, they took spin training out. Teach you how to recover before
agravating the stall into a spin.

snip
I think spin training needs to be done, if nothing more than while on
the ground explaining what you have to do to survive to talk about it.
Later,
Steve.T
PP ASEL/Instrument


We used to teach everyone spin entry and recovery even though it was not in the PP requirements. The chief pilot
insisted on it and we all agreed it should be done...