Sisteron SGP 2014

On Friday, May 16, 2014 1:34:57 PM UTC-5, Gary Ittner wrote:
wrote : - interesting to see how wing's loading was limited to 50 kg/m per square meter in favor of older ventus designs.... I think it was a direct attack on the Diana 2's... the V2/29/27's couldn't compete with it at 58kg/sqm. The maximum certificated wing loadings for the gliders at the Sisteron Grand Prix a LS 8 50.00 kg/sqm Ventus 2 54.29 kg/sqm ASW 27 55.56 kg/sqm Diana 2 57.87 kg/sqm ASG 29/15 59.80 kg/sqm If restricting all the gliders to the same 50 kg/sqm wing loading "hurts" the Diana 2, it hurts the ASG 29/15 even more. So how is this a direct attact on the Diana 2 ? Gary Ittner P7 "Have glider, will race"

- So if Ventus design is heavier than for instance Diana 2, which glider will run better at 50 kg/sqm?
Why is there a restriction in the first place, other than to favor certain glider types?

On Friday, May 16, 2014 3:08:55 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Friday, May 16, 2014 1:34:57 PM UTC-5, Gary Ittner wrote:

wrote : - interesting to see how wing's loading was limited to 50 kg/m per square meter in favor of older ventus designs... I think it was a direct attack on the Diana 2's... the V2/29/27's couldn't compete with it at 58kg/sqm. The maximum certificated wing loadings for the gliders at the Sisteron Grand Prix a LS 8 50.00 kg/sqm Ventus 2 54.29 kg/sqm ASW 27 55.56 kg/sqm Diana 2 57.87 kg/sqm ASG 29/15 59.80 kg/sqm If restricting all the gliders to the same 50 kg/sqm wing loading "hurts" the Diana 2, it hurts the ASG 29/15 even more. So how is this a direct attact on the Diana 2 ? Gary Ittner P7 "Have glider, will race"



- So if Ventus design is heavier than for instance Diana 2, which glider will run better at 50 kg/sqm?

Why is there a restriction in the first place, other than to favor certain glider types?

Does anyone know when the restriction was put in place before or after Diana 2 showed up?

I'd look at it a bit differently. I thought that the premise of the Grand Prix was to make it about pilot vs. pilot as opposed to a pure technology race. Since the majority of gliders have to be built to survive in a broad range of uses (i.e. not just optimized for high-end racing), the rule probably makes sense if that's the context. No?

On Friday, May 16, 2014 2:34:57 PM UTC-4, Gary Ittner wrote:
wrote :



- interesting to see how wing's loading was limited to 50 kg/m per square

meter in favor of older ventus designs...



I think it was a direct attack on the Diana 2's... the V2/29/27's couldn't

compete with it at 58kg/sqm.





The maximum certificated wing loadings for the gliders at the Sisteron Grand

Prix a



LS 8 50.00 kg/sqm



Ventus 2 54.29 kg/sqm



ASW 27 55.56 kg/sqm



Diana 2 57.87 kg/sqm



ASG 29/15 59.80 kg/sqm



If restricting all the gliders to the same 50 kg/sqm wing loading "hurts"

the Diana 2, it hurts the ASG 29/15 even more. So how is this a direct

attact on the Diana 2 ?



Gary Ittner P7

"Have glider, will race"

Not necessarily. The airfoil of Diana 2 was designed to climb very well at high wing loading. There is a Diana 2 design paper. It was a very interesting read.

"Andy K" wrote:
Not necessarily. The airfoil of Diana 2 was designed to climb very well at
high wing loading. There is a Diana 2 design paper. It was a very
interesting read.


Ah, I understand you. The ASG 29 airfoil was probably designed to climb
poorly at high wingloading.

The Sisteron World Grand Prix Final was not a race run according to FAI 15m
class rules, but a special race that in this case used a wing span limit of
15m and a wing loading limit of 50 kg/sqm. If the loading limit was an
attack on the Diana 2 and ASG 29 by not allowing them to use their loading
advantage over the Ventus 2, then was the span limit an attack on the Ventus
2 cxa and ASG 29 by not allowing them to use their span advantage over the
Diana 2? (Poor ASG 29; doubly attacked)

Some Grand Prix qualifying races have already been run using 18m gliders,
and I have heard a rumor that the next World Grand Prix Final may be 18m.
Will Diana 2 fans consider that a slap in the face?

If plantain and gkurek care to see a _real_ attack on the Diana 2, they
should seek out an article in Gliding International from a couple years ago,
in which former 15m European Champion Steven Raimond proposes the Diana 2 be
banned from international 15m competition and goes on to state his reasons
(note: I totally disagree with Steve's proposal, and have not heard of
anyone at the IGC seriously considering it).

Gary Ittner P7
"Have glider, will race"

On Sunday, May 11, 2014 1:15:09 AM UTC-4, GR8 wrote:
http://www.sgp.aero/final2014.aspx

The race was won by a great french glider pilot Didier Hauss, strictly on the merits of his superior tactic and his knowledge of local weather and terrain. Gliders didn't really matter.

W dniu sobota, 17 maja 2014 03:14:59 UTC+2 użytkownik GR8 napisał:
On Sunday, May 11, 2014 1:15:09 AM UTC-4, GR8 wrote:

http://www.sgp.aero/final2014.aspx



The race was won by a great french glider pilot Didier Hauss, strictly on the merits of his superior tactic and his knowledge of local weather and terrain. Gliders didn't really matter.

knowledge of local weather and terrain - yes, it was crucial

Didier is good, but Sebastian is better - last SGP qualifying (18m class):
http://www.soaringspot.com/grandprix...ay-by-day.html
The Sebastian advantage on his area was much greater than in Didier's on Final SGP

Bruce Taylor is underrated - he deserved at least a podium.

Well, first let's congratulate Didier for his win. It was great to follow these races. Didier was clearly flying all-out, taking risks and sometimes paying the price. Sebastian writes in his blog http://www.sebastiankawa.pl/6039/kol...rzostw-swiata/ :"(...) Didier had shown he is at his own backyard and there is no better competitor".

During 17th EGC (18m) the previous year Didier was repeatedly making bold/unorthodox tactical moves as well, he was not flying just do defend his position, making the show great for everybody. We are lucky there are so many individualistic pilots up there in the rankings to watch.

About the 50kg/m2 limit: 6 Ventus gliders out of 8 total placed in top 8.
The 50kg/m2 rule seems to favor Ventus most (LS 8 aside). Hard to dismiss the possibility that the 50kg/m2 rule favors some gliders over the other, skewing the "pure design" comparisons.

I'd like to see a one design grand Prix. No excuses. My vote is for PW5's.

On Sunday, May 18, 2014 8:34:14 AM UTC-7, Tony wrote:
I'd like to see a one design grand Prix. No excuses. My vote is for PW5's.

C'mon Tony, go all the way. GAPAs....

Craig