How does one land upside down following a PT3?

No one was killed, the accident report, on current UK AAIB practice, will
probably simply be the pilot's report with a bit of window dressing.

At 23:59 21 June 2014, Mark628CA wrote:
Waiting for the accident report goes against every principle of RAS.

Release the hounds! Experts are everywhere!

On Saturday, June 21, 2014 8:59:22 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Friday, June 20, 2014 11:58:21 PM UTC-4, POPS wrote:



It's super simple ... you land on your roof .... geez



But how do one land inverted without breaking wings, nose, or tail AND walk away?



I'm more interested in well-dissected historical cases where this has happened, than in this particular undocumented accident.

This is a serious question then?

It's not possible to "land" (i.e. in a controlled fashion) a glider inverted. Wing incidence, camber and dihedral are all against you. If you were to try this, the glider would touch down on the tail with the nose pitched rather high and the fuselage would drop hard on the cockpit, still with significant forward speed. It's a call-911 event. And there probably won't be any need to hurry.

When someone crawls out of a wreck that stops inverted, it's because the glider flopped on its back at the end of some sort of tumble and it happened to do so in a relatively gentle fashion. It's not a high percentage play.

T8

At 19:06 21 June 2014, Paul T wrote:
At 15:28 21 June 2014, Matt Herron Jr. wrote:

The photo show tail boom broken behind wings. Tail and wings and nose
appear intact. Speculations on how the pilot landed like this?

Without considering this particular accident what possible circumstance
would result in the majority of the aircraft being intact but the tail boom
broken off and why? Which particular types of glider are more prone to this
happening than others, which are they? You work it out or as I believe you
say over there, go figure.

On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 10:48:14 AM UTC-4, Evan Ludeman wrote:
If you were to try this (ed. landing inverted), the glider would touch down on the tail with the nose pitched rather high and the fuselage would drop hard on the cockpit, still with significant forward speed.

Then maybe the fuselage would break behind the wings, thus dissipating a great deal of energy and the pieces would come to rest relatively intact like in the photo of the Long Mynd landing. I conclude that 'flying the glider' until it stops is the better option even if the glider is inverted.

When someone crawls out of a wreck that stops inverted, it's because the glider flopped on its back at the end of some sort of tumble and it happened to do so in a relatively gentle fashion....

Tumbling a glider in 'a relatively gentle fashion' is a possibility??

Related: Does anyone know of a case where a glider was flipped inverted on turn to final in rotor-in-pattern conditions? I'm curious because I got thrashed severely on turn to final a few weeks ago.

On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 8:29:11 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 10:48:14 AM UTC-4, Evan Ludeman wrote:

If you were to try this (ed. landing inverted), the glider would touch down on the tail with the nose pitched rather high and the fuselage would drop hard on the cockpit, still with significant forward speed.



Then maybe the fuselage would break behind the wings, thus dissipating a great deal of energy and the pieces would come to rest relatively intact like in the photo of the Long Mynd landing. I conclude that 'flying the glider' until it stops is the better option even if the glider is inverted.



When someone crawls out of a wreck that stops inverted, it's because the glider flopped on its back at the end of some sort of tumble and it happened to do so in a relatively gentle fashion....



Tumbling a glider in 'a relatively gentle fashion' is a possibility??

No, of course not. It's violent as hell. However it does sometimes happen that *after* most of the energy is dissipated the glider goes over the nose in a less violent fashion and *that* is sometimes survivable.

T8

On 6/24/2014 6:29 PM, son_of_flubber wrote:
Snip...

Related: Does anyone know of a case where a glider was flipped inverted on
turn to final in rotor-in-pattern conditions? I'm curious because I got
thrashed severely on turn to final a few weeks ago.


I don't, but when I began flying from a site (Boulder, CO) well-known for
'dynamic pattern conditions' I began worrying about this sort of thing,
myself. My concern was uncommanded rolling motion on short final sufficient to
cause a wingtip to hit/drag-on the ground. (I figured the inverted bit would
then take care of itself!) My experience at the time was that even on the
worst sort of thrashy days, as I neared the ground, the thrashiness tended to
diminish, though never as early/high above the ground as my brain desired.

My 'research' involved flying and brain picking. The most experienced person
on the airport told me in essence: There are two types of soaring pilots who
fly from Boulder: those who WILL fly in the wave, and those who won't. MY
experience has been that the violence tends to diminish about the time
roundout altitude is reached. BUT...anything is possible, so each pilot has to
decide if the return is worth the risk.

I continued to soar from Boulder, experienced eyeball-rattling turbulence (not
necessarily on 'classically wavish days'), worked really hard to stay out of
the pattern when the winds at pattern heights were changing to westerly (a
time my experience showed tended to have genuinely roily
conditions...actually, climbing or descending through the shearing layer when
the west wind had any 'oomph' to it at all it tended to be enthusiastically
roily, but so long as I wasn't near anything I could hit, I didn't worry much
about it. The farthest I ever got rolled against full opposite aileron was
~90-degrees. It got my attention, especially the first time, but only rarely
did uncommanded rolls ever go past 45-degrees, and I've never met anyone who
said they'd been rolled past 90-degrees when flying from Boulder.

You can find in "Soaring" mag's archives an article by Paul Bikle who wrote
(working from ancient memory, here) he'd been rolled inverted 'flying the
mountains bordering the Owens Valley.' I've forgotten the details, but I
remember thinking - when reading it - I'd probably have died under similar
circumstances, lacking the piloting skills in 'unusual attitudes' to have the
wherewithal to continue to roll without horribly dishing out or more stupidly
attempting a split-S. Ground clearance - lack of - was an issue, obviously...

Bob W.

On Wednesday, June 25, 2014 4:04:59 PM UTC+12, BobW wrote:
I don't, but when I began flying from a site (Boulder, CO) well-known for
'dynamic pattern conditions' I began worrying about this sort of thing,
myself. My concern was uncommanded rolling motion on short final sufficient to
cause a wingtip to hit/drag-on the ground. (I figured the inverted bit would
then take care of itself!) My experience at the time was that even on the
worst sort of thrashy days, as I neared the ground, the thrashiness tended to
diminish, though never as early/high above the ground as my brain desired..

We get some pretty nasty thrash at times at most sites in New Zealand. When using rotor to try to climb into the wave it's a constant tradeoff between flying slowing to not get banged around too much, and flying fast to not get stalled by tail gusts or rolled despite full opposite aileron.

I tend to go for somewhat slow. 60 or 65 knots, say.

For approaches in those conditions I try to get into the downwind much higher than normal -- 1500 or 2000 ft AGL, say (which is often out of the worst of the thrash here) and then use something near the top of the white (80 or 90 knots) and maximum airbrake (and flap if available) to descend steeply and continuously until it's time to start the roundout. You spend minimum time in the worst of it, have maximum resistance against unwanted rolls, maximum resistance against windshear, and since you've probably got 30 knots on the nose the ground speed is the same as a calm day approach and it's no problem to slow down (low enough that falling won't hurt) and get stopped.

If you can handle an "airbrakes stuck open" exercise on a calm day then this is easy to do. I've never even had a hint of overshooting, and you've got massive margin to do something about any developing undershoot.

On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 8:29:11 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 10:48:14 AM UTC-4, Evan Ludeman wrote:

If you were to try this (ed. landing inverted), the glider would touch down on the tail with the nose pitched rather high and the fuselage would drop hard on the cockpit, still with significant forward speed.



Then maybe the fuselage would break behind the wings, thus dissipating a great deal of energy and the pieces would come to rest relatively intact like in the photo of the Long Mynd landing. I conclude that 'flying the glider' until it stops is the better option even if the glider is inverted.



When someone crawls out of a wreck that stops inverted, it's because the glider flopped on its back at the end of some sort of tumble and it happened to do so in a relatively gentle fashion....



Tumbling a glider in 'a relatively gentle fashion' is a possibility??



Related: Does anyone know of a case where a glider was flipped inverted on turn to final in rotor-in-pattern conditions? I'm curious because I got thrashed severely on turn to final a few weeks ago.

I've been rolled hard and fast enough to consider keeping the roll going.
Didn't do it.
UH

On 25/06/14 01:29, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 10:48:14 AM UTC-4, Evan Ludeman wrote:
If you were to try this (ed. landing inverted), the glider would touch down on the tail with the nose pitched rather high and the fuselage would drop hard on the cockpit, still with significant forward speed.

Then maybe the fuselage would break behind the wings, thus dissipating a great deal of energy and the pieces would come to rest relatively intact like in the photo of the Long Mynd landing. I conclude that 'flying the glider' until it stops is the better option even if the glider is inverted.

When someone crawls out of a wreck that stops inverted, it's because the glider flopped on its back at the end of some sort of tumble and it happened to do so in a relatively gentle fashion....

Tumbling a glider in 'a relatively gentle fashion' is a possibility??

Related: Does anyone know of a case where a glider was flipped inverted on turn to final in rotor-in-pattern conditions? I'm curious because I got thrashed severely on turn to final a few weeks ago.

Similar but different...

An acquaintance told me he had been the K13 pilot in the accident below.
He stated that he plowed into the grid upside down. I didn't quite believe
him - because I couldn't quite understand why he was unscathed.

Perhaps someone with less tenuous connection to the accident can comment.

http://www.lakesgc.co.uk/mainwebpage...Jul%201977.pdf
page 128
VORTEX CREATES HAVOC AT LASHAM
One air scout hurt (two broken ribs), four badly
and one slightly damaged gliders were the
result when a K-13 on finals was 'hit' by the
vortex of a Boeing 727 at Lasham on Saturday,
April 30, and lost control.
The K-13 came in to land just after the 727
had taken off from the opposite direction (in
cross-wind conditions) and flew into the take-off
vortex at its worst point of turbulence. It dived
or spun in towards the gliders in the aero-tow
queue and others parked along the side
damaging a K- 7. K·8, Astir and Std Libelle in
the process. luckily the K-13 pilots were un-
hurt. 'The accident is under investigation. but
the cost of this mishap is estimated to be in the
region of £25000.

On Friday, June 20, 2014 5:02:53 PM UTC-6, waremark wrote:
Speculation that winch launch commenced with elevator not connected.

Which would perhaps lead to a steep climb, stall/spin and rotation in a near vertical attitude resulting in an inverted impact, usually fatal. Happened on auto launch in Georgia several years ago with an all-flying tail stall on a Phoebus C. Pilot hurt but survived.

Recognized hazard in winch launching whatever the cause. Like all accidents, preventable.

Frank Whiteley