Open Discussion; Creating XC pilots

Just to mention the baby elephant with very big ears that is circling just above pattern altitude:

www.glidercfi.com and http://www.condorxcsoaring.com/

I wonder if the old hands in XC have forgotten how big the issue of safely landing out looms in the mind of the aspiring XC pilot?

My perspective is that efforts to foster XC should focus on thoroughly preparing novices to land out (in fields and at unfamiliar airports). XC novices are not babies. We will take the initiative to learn all the other fine points of XC and to initiate all the necessary changes in club guidelines and structure. Your coaching is invaluable, and we will ask for it once we get the XC bug.

I'd love to do more simulated landout training in my area like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAOCd18Bv8Y

Everything about XC beyond land outs seems very doable to me. I'm an XC pre-novice until I'm prepared to safely land out. Get me over that hurdle and I can manage the rest.

And from what I gather in my area, the restrictions on using my club's aircraft for XC followed from bad experiences with landouts in the past. QED

On 7/16/2014 6:46 PM, son_of_flubber wrote:
I wonder if the old hands in XC have forgotten how big the issue of safely
landing out looms in the mind of the aspiring XC pilot?

Maybe some, but not all/this guy! I've long thought "the off-field-landing
hurdle" probably THE most significant one "on the normal road to XC soaring
competence."

My perspective is that efforts to foster XC should focus on thoroughly
preparing novices to land out (in fields and at unfamiliar airports).

I completely agree...and my training (very informally, but also very
effectively) did. My "pre-XC" training consisted entirely of: 1) instruction
(patterns/spot landings/verbal advice); 2) reading/brain-picking; and 3)
imagination. The first glider I ever saw in a field was the one I'd just
piloted there; it had not been one of the day's goals at takeoff time.

XC
novices are not babies. We will take the initiative to learn all the other
fine points of XC and to initiate all the necessary changes in club
guidelines and structure. Your coaching is invaluable, and we will ask for
it once we get the XC bug.

I suspect "the magic poll" would overwhelmingly concur your attitude is
"ideal" and "just what the XC Soaring Doctor ordered." It reflects my own when
I was convincing myself thermals weren't airport-centric...an attitude in my
case probably somewhat self-constructed and instructor-influenced. My primary
CFIG was a very matter-of-fact sort who tended to see humor in the very many
self-inflicted situations almost certain to accompany XC soaring. He certainly
laughed a lot at my eager, silly questions!

I'd love to do more simulated landout training in my area like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAOCd18Bv8Y

"Go for it!" if you have the opportunity...but know such training & exposure
is far from necessary, to safely learn - and apply! - the basics: rudimentary
navigation; always keeping a perceived safe landing field within conservative
reach; being mentally prepared to USE that area (sooner, rather than later,
should that little voice in your skull begin talking to you); applying what
your instruction conveyed to you about "the proper way[s]" to asses how any
approach is progressing; spot selection, speed control; etc.

Everything about XC beyond land outs seems very doable to me. I'm an XC
pre-novice until I'm prepared to safely land out. Get me over that hurdle
and I can manage the rest.

And - though there's many ways to "get there" - you can probably get yourself
over "that hurdle" much more easily than you may presently imagine. All it'll
take is being a hair below "prudently making it back to your home-base
pattern" height, and not connect with expected lift. (BTDT! As have many
others, I suspect...) In safety, pattern, and actual landing terms, everything
was a non-event. In MENTAL terms, not so much! And all I'd set out to do that
day was (very briefly, and one time only) get one thermal beyond the home
base, simply to convince myself that thermals DID in fact exist in that region
surrounding my home-base training area (i.e. go from "pre-novice" to
"experienced"). Everything worked as I'd imagined, planned and discussed with
my instructor, except that the SECOND thermal I needed to get back home didn't
exist (a timing thing - a new, blue, stable airmass was literally on my tail
as I chased my first cloud-n-thermal beyond the training area). I was more
embarrassed than alarmed at the turn of events, especially when my
instructor/crew brought ME the brewskis on the retrieve (saved until after
reassembly at the airport), a whopping two or so road miles from the training
field.

And from what I gather in my area, the restrictions on using my club's
aircraft for XC followed from bad experiences with landouts in the past.
QED

"Sigh." In my observational experience an all-too-common reaction to what
usually is some blend of
inadequate-instruction/poor-interpersonal-dynamics...rather than "upping
everyone's game," the easy/coward's/predictably-self-defeating way out is
chosen. Having been a member of three clubs in three widely separated regions
of the country, insofar as encouraging tyro XC in club equipment is concerned,
two "did things right" and one "applied the frightened turtle approach.".
Fortunately the turtle club was my SECOND club experience, by which time I
owned a 1-26. Still, their (understandable, but deplorable) attitude made me
hesitate a season or so before joining that club. (Happily, things/they
changed not too long after my job took me to my 3rd club.)

YMMV.

Bob W.

On Wednesday, July 16, 2014 7:46:50 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
I wonder if the old hands in XC have forgotten how big the issue of safely landing out looms in the mind of the aspiring XC pilot?

Whoa, wait a minute - what does XC have to do with landing out? Last time I checked, there is NO guarantee that a local flight in a glider will end up on an airfield! And if you look at NTSB accident reports (thank you Tom Knauff!), a surprising number of "local" instructional and solo flight end up "aux vaches"! What you are saying is that our (USA) training system does not put enough emphasis on a basic skill in flying gliders - the technique for picking a suitable landout field and accomplishing a safe pattern, landing, and recovery of the glider to the home field. THIS SHOULD BE DONE BEFORE GETTING YOUR LICENSE! It is not some fancy skill reserved to those lucky glassholes who disappear for hours on end (but sometimes need to be retrieved from some lonely field, having to buy dinner for the ravenous retrieve crew).

My perspective is that efforts to foster XC should focus on thoroughly preparing novices to land out (in fields and at unfamiliar airports). XC novices are not babies. We will take the initiative to learn all the other fine points of XC and to initiate all the necessary changes in club guidelines and structure. Your coaching is invaluable, and we will ask for it once we get the XC bug.

If your instructor didn't begin preparing you for the inevitable landout prior to solo, and continue until your checkride, then he has done you a great disservice (but is probably typical of most US instructors who themselves have never landed out) and reflects the FAA's complacency in our poor training requirements. If the Silver badge was a requirement for a glider PPL (like in Germany) that would probably change - but I don't see that ever happening in the US!


Everything about XC beyond land outs seems very doable to me. I'm an XC pre-novice until I'm prepared to safely land out. Get me over that hurdle and I can manage the rest.

Get yourself over "that hurdle". Read everything about landouts you can find (many club sites have information), talk to pilots who have done them, practice accurate patterns until you KNOW you can land your glider over an obstacle into a short field, walk the fields around your gliderfield and imagine landing in them, pick out fields you would land in while driving your car or even on local flights. If you can get some dual time in a motorglider or lightplane to scout out landable fields and check out your decision process, all the better.

And from what I gather in my area, the restrictions on using my club's aircraft for XC followed from bad experiences with landouts in the past. QED

See above. A serious glider pilot has to do the homework himself. Then go out and fly! If you have a plan and follow it (which includes always having a suitable field picked out EARLY enough to really check it out) then the actual landout is actually kinda fun...I'ts cool to get out of your glider in some quiet little field and realize you are probably the first person to ever land a plane there - and then get to explain to the locals how "the wind quit"!

OTOH - A rushed landout is ABSOLUTELY TERRIFYING! BTDT. Have a plan, and when the time comes, execute it.

Kirk
66
(My last landout was on 2 July, in a nice cut wheat field in southern Illinois - it's on OLC if you want to see how it evolved - US flight #82 for that day, in Google maps you can see the field I landed in and the pattern I flew to get into it.)

On Thursday, July 17, 2014 12:26:40 PM UTC-5, kirk.stant wrote:

Kirk

66

(My last landout was on 2 July, in a nice cut wheat field in southern Illinois - it's on OLC if you want to see how it evolved - US flight #82 for that day, in Google maps you can see the field I landed in and the pattern I flew to get into it.)

Better yet, download the .igc file and watch it on GlidePort - Really neat!

http://glideport.aero

Kirk
66

On Thursday, July 17, 2014 11:26:40 AM UTC-6, kirk.stant wrote:
On Wednesday, July 16, 2014 7:46:50 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:

I wonder if the old hands in XC have forgotten how big the issue of safely landing out looms in the mind of the aspiring XC pilot?



Whoa, wait a minute - what does XC have to do with landing out? Last time I checked, there is NO guarantee that a local flight in a glider will end up on an airfield! And if you look at NTSB accident reports (thank you Tom Knauff!), a surprising number of "local" instructional and solo flight end up "aux vaches"! What you are saying is that our (USA) training system does not put enough emphasis on a basic skill in flying gliders - the technique for picking a suitable landout field and accomplishing a safe pattern, landing, and recovery of the glider to the home field. THIS SHOULD BE DONE BEFORE GETTING YOUR LICENSE! It is not some fancy skill reserved to those lucky glassholes who disappear for hours on end (but sometimes need to be retrieved from some lonely field, having to buy dinner for the ravenous retrieve crew).



My perspective is that efforts to foster XC should focus on thoroughly preparing novices to land out (in fields and at unfamiliar airports). XC novices are not babies. We will take the initiative to learn all the other fine points of XC and to initiate all the necessary changes in club guidelines and structure. Your coaching is invaluable, and we will ask for it once we get the XC bug.



If your instructor didn't begin preparing you for the inevitable landout prior to solo, and continue until your checkride, then he has done you a great disservice (but is probably typical of most US instructors who themselves have never landed out) and reflects the FAA's complacency in our poor training requirements. If the Silver badge was a requirement for a glider PPL (like in Germany) that would probably change - but I don't see that ever happening in the US!





Everything about XC beyond land outs seems very doable to me. I'm an XC pre-novice until I'm prepared to safely land out. Get me over that hurdle and I can manage the rest.



Get yourself over "that hurdle". Read everything about landouts you can find (many club sites have information), talk to pilots who have done them, practice accurate patterns until you KNOW you can land your glider over an obstacle into a short field, walk the fields around your gliderfield and imagine landing in them, pick out fields you would land in while driving your car or even on local flights. If you can get some dual time in a motorglider or lightplane to scout out landable fields and check out your decision process, all the better.



And from what I gather in my area, the restrictions on using my club's aircraft for XC followed from bad experiences with landouts in the past. QED



See above. A serious glider pilot has to do the homework himself. Then go out and fly! If you have a plan and follow it (which includes always having a suitable field picked out EARLY enough to really check it out) then the actual landout is actually kinda fun...I'ts cool to get out of your glider in some quiet little field and realize you are probably the first person to ever land a plane there - and then get to explain to the locals how "the wind quit"!



OTOH - A rushed landout is ABSOLUTELY TERRIFYING! BTDT. Have a plan, and when the time comes, execute it.



Kirk

66

(My last landout was on 2 July, in a nice cut wheat field in southern Illinois - it's on OLC if you want to see how it evolved - US flight #82 for that day, in Google maps you can see the field I landed in and the pattern I flew to get into it.)

In the UK, the Bronze Badge program was XC preparation as is the SSA Bronze Badge http://www.ssa.org/BadgesAndRecords#Bronze

At my first UK club, we were fortunate to have a small grass private strip nearby to allow an initial 'off field' experience as part of the Bronze completion.

Frank Whiteley

On Thursday, July 17, 2014 1:26:40 PM UTC-4, kirk.stant wrote:
On Wednesday, July 16, 2014 7:46:50 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:

I wonder if the old hands in XC have forgotten how big the issue of safely landing out looms in the mind of the aspiring XC pilot?



Whoa, wait a minute - what does XC have to do with landing out?
..
Sure, a landout for me at this stage grows more inevitable with every flight. But novices make a very conservative estimation of final glide to pattern altitude, they only fly upwind of the airport, they stay above 'the funnel' etc..


What you are saying is that our (USA) training system does not put enough emphasis on a basic skill in flying gliders - the technique for picking a suitable landout field and accomplishing a safe pattern, landing, and recovery of the glider to the home field.

I'm not saying that at all. Maybe that's true on average, but I've trained extensively with some of the best CFIs in the USA. Several are active or former XC pilots. I understand the theory very well and I habitually evaluate landout fields from the air and the ground.

But I've also done an hour of simulated landout training in a LSA with a CFI who has done many landouts. I learned that that kind of training is invaluable. The experience started to integrate the book learning and discussion into concrete flying ability. Several people suggest that I should do that integration on-the-fly on my own in a field some day. That's what they did. Good luck pal!

I've read Tom Knauff's opinion that many active XC pilots are unprepared to land out and over-confident in their ability to land out. I've read Tom's opinion that simulated landout training in a motorglider is very cost-effective training and that people make huge gains in their ability to select good fields and properly set up patterns with just a few hours of practice, and that simulated landout training justifiably increases confidence and reduces mistake-inducing land out stress.

I've spoken with a top shelf CFI from the UK who emphatically states "training to land out in a motor glider is the ONLY sensible approach". The CFIs who have access to motorgliders probably agree with that, and those who don't have access to motorgliders naturally say that "simulated landout training is good" but not necessary.

I've done an hour of simulated landout training in an LSA and based on that experience I'd like to do more in the rather difficult to landout region where I fly. I think that if that sort of training was more generally available and promoted, that it would increase the number of pilots interested in XC.

BTW, I've also done a few hours in a Duo with a top-shelf XC pilot at a world class soaring location. The general thrust of this thread is to make those opportunities more available, and I would certainly like to see that happen. It is something that I would like to do more of in the future, but that level of flying is so far above my level that it hardly seems relevant at that the moment.

On Thu, 17 Jul 2014 16:33:14 -0700, son_of_flubber wrote:

BTW, I've also done a few hours in a Duo with a top-shelf XC pilot at a
world class soaring location. The general thrust of this thread is to
make those opportunities more available, and I would certainly like to
see that happen. It is something that I would like to do more of in the
future, but that level of flying is so far above my level that it hardly
seems relevant at that the moment.

To back up what Frank said: I learnt, and still fly at, Cambridge Gliding
Club in the UK, which has a very strong XC culture. At a guess more
members go XC than don't and it is expected that club gliders will go XC:
on a good day its quite common to find both our ASK-21s flying 80-100km
out and return trips if the students are close enough to solo to benefit
from the experience. Yes, many of our instructors are good XC pilots. I
went solo after 6 months (learning off the winch in ASK21 and G103a with
a Puch for spin training), converted to the club's SZD Juniors and spent
the next 12 months getting my Bronze badge and, along the way, picking up
Silver C height and duration legs as well as the soaring flights needed
for the Bronze XC extension. Then I did the navigation, field selection
and field landing practise training in the club's Schreibe SF-25 TMG.
These are not pass/fail exercises: you do it until both you and the
instructor are happy you can navigate and handle a landout. The first
good day after that I was briefed and sent off in a Junior to get Silver
distance by flying the 68 km to Rattlesden and landing the friends
brought the trailer and we de-rigged and trailered the Junior back. I was
monumentally slow - took me 3.5 hours to get to Rattlesden, but I did get
there and was able to retrieve one of that crew a month or so later when
he flew the same course.

IMO this is a near ideal way to learn the basic XC skills: going for
Bronze and Silver more or less straight after soloing keeps the momentum
going and, equally important, gives the new glider pilot something
achievable to aim for instead of getting bored flying round the field and
then wandering off to try something else.

Meanwhile, a student can be learning to stay up while flying round a
course by flying mini-triangles round the home field while working on the
Bronze badge. This can be done without getting out of gliding range of
home and is a far more useful way of building hours and XC skills than
aimless bimbling about near the field. Its more fun too.

Using a TMG is a very good way to do navigation and field landing
exercises as it flys at a similar speed to a glider and a good instructor
will know how to reduce the power enough to get a good approximation of a
30:1 glide ratio for field landing practise. The student will be familiar
with the glidepath control since the SF-25, like many other TMGs, has
airbrakes.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

"BTW, I've also done a few hours in a Duo with a top-shelf XC pilot at a world class soaring location. The general thrust of this thread is to make those opportunities more available, and I would certainly like to see that happen. It is something that I would like to do more of in the future, but that level of flying is so far above my level that it hardly seems relevant at that the moment."

***but that level of flying is so far above my level that it hardly seems relevant at that the moment.***

I think the last sentence is an important one to address. Working with the right mentor or instructor, there are so many ways to advance from whatever your current state is.

One of the key things I go through with anyone that I am mentoring is a basic assessment of their skills/weaknesses and things they want to work on. As Kemp mentioned, if their thermalling and speed to fly skills aren't up to the task, you leave that out of the equation and focus on strategy. I will often work with people that need better thermalling skills or speed control. The key is to just pick a few things to work on actively and then passively absorb a lot of the other activity all while enjoying an XC flight that you might not do yourself.

It's good to understand what you aren't ready to do by yourself or that maybe you can't absorb a massive amount all at once, but I do see a lot of people that stand a lot to gain from working with a mentor/instructor well before they think they are ready.

Sounds like you've done quite a bit of prep compared to what I'm used to seeing.

Morgan

On Thursday, July 17, 2014 6:33:14 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:

Sure, a landout for me at this stage grows more inevitable with every flight. But novices make a very conservative estimation of final glide to pattern altitude, they only fly upwind of the airport, they stay above 'the funnel' etc..

Sure they do - right up to the day they don't and end up in a field ;^)

It's kinda like skiing - how long do you stay on the bunny slope? And when you move to the more challenging trails, do you ever fall down? Landing out (and not necessarily in a field - any un-planned landing really counts and with a good glide computer an airfield can usually be kept in range) is the soaring equivalent of falling down - if you don't do it you are not pushing yourself!

Unless, of course, you are (as Pez would describe) a twirlybird - but I don't get that impression!

What you are saying is that our (USA) training system does not put enough emphasis on a basic skill in flying gliders - the technique for picking a suitable landout field and accomplishing a safe pattern, landing, and recovery of the glider to the home field.



I'm not saying that at all. Maybe that's true on average, but I've trained extensively with some of the best CFIs in the USA. Several are active or former XC pilots. I understand the theory very well and I habitually evaluate landout fields from the air and the ground.

Great!


But I've also done an hour of simulated landout training in a LSA with a CFI who has done many landouts. I learned that that kind of training is invaluable. The experience started to integrate the book learning and discussion into concrete flying ability. Several people suggest that I should do that integration on-the-fly on my own in a field some day. That's what they did. Good luck pal!

Even better - you sound more prepared than most XC pilots I know!


I've read Tom Knauff's opinion that many active XC pilots are unprepared to land out and over-confident in their ability to land out. I've read Tom's opinion that simulated landout training in a motorglider is very cost-effective training and that people make huge gains in their ability to select good fields and properly set up patterns with just a few hours of practice, and that simulated landout training justifiably increases confidence and reduces mistake-inducing land out stress.

Totally agree...and would add that even Condor has a lot to add to training for landouts - our local scenery even has a designated landout field in it..


I've spoken with a top shelf CFI from the UK who emphatically states "training to land out in a motor glider is the ONLY sensible approach". The CFIs who have access to motorgliders probably agree with that, and those who don't have access to motorgliders naturally say that "simulated landout training is good" but not necessary.

Unfortunately, in the US two-place motorgliders are rare - but lightplanes are not. A low and slow flight around the local area checking out potential landout fields is almost as useful - which you have also done...


I've done an hour of simulated landout training in an LSA and based on that experience I'd like to do more in the rather difficult to landout region where I fly. I think that if that sort of training was more generally available and promoted, that it would increase the number of pilots interested in XC.

You sound almost over-prepared. Landing out safely is a process, since you can't know ahead of time where it's going to happen and check out every possible field. Once you have that process nailed - go!

But I also think "fear of landouts" is used as an excuse by many pilots, who simply do not want to venture away from the home field. What percentage of US glider pilots actually fly XC? It's not really about money - 1-26s are cheap and in some ways are great XC gliders (can land anywhere and the retrieves tend to be short).


BTW, I've also done a few hours in a Duo with a top-shelf XC pilot at a world class soaring location. The general thrust of this thread is to make those opportunities more available, and I would certainly like to see that happen. It is something that I would like to do more of in the future, but that level of flying is so far above my level that it hardly seems relevant at that the moment.

I've heard that so many times. "Why doesn't someone with lots of experience take the time to hold my hand and take me XC?". Because those guys are going XC, that's why! It's not that complicated - get a glider, make sure the varios work, put air in the trailer tires, then go! You learn by doing.

Kirk
66