Midair Warning

The F16 has better than TCAS-- it has in board radar

http://www.northropgrumman.com/Capab...s/default.aspx

On Saturday, July 11, 2015 at 5:37:00 AM UTC-7, Bob Pasker wrote:
The F16 has better than TCAS-- it has in board radar

http://www.northropgrumman.com/Capab...s/default.aspx

No. Radar and TCAS are not related. Radar is not some magic thing that sees aircraft all around you, issues a traffic warning etc.

Maybe things have changed, but when I was flying a lot of IFR, ATC had
no duty to separate IFR and VFR traffic /_in VMC_/. The best you could
hope for as a VFR pilot was to request flight following and then, on a
workload allowing basis, ATC would issue advisories on IFR traffic.
Likewise, workload allowing, ATC would issue advisories of VFR aircraft
to IFR aircraft. The pilot in command has always had the responsibility
of maintaining separation from other aircraft in VMC.

Someone mentioned earlier that, if the Cessna had had a Power Flarm
installed, he would have seen the F-16. I'll bet that if a poll of
general aviation pilots _/in the USA/_ asking their opinion of Power
Flarm was taken the vast majority of answers would be, "What's Power
Flarm?". We glider pilots live in a very small community mostly unknown
to the rest of aviation and a piece of equipment which is to most glider
pilots the end-all of safety is irrelevant to general aviation.

Discussing this tragic accident on this forum has no real bearing on
soaring other than the admonition to keep your head out and your eyes open.

On 7/10/2015 11:57 PM, Mike Schumann wrote:
On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 7:37:08 PM UTC-5, kirk.stant wrote:
Transponders are only HALF the solution. You also need a means to detect other aircraft in your vicinity, so that YOU can initiate detection and avoidance. A transponder by itself will do ABSOLUTELY NO GOOD in preventing a glider to glider, or glider to VFR power (not talking to center) mid-air.

Fighters do not carry TCAS. They MAY be talking to center, but in a MOA they may never get a call about your presence from ATC, even if you have a transponder. Most have radar, and many have transponder interrogators that should let them detect you well before a midair will occur (I had this capability in old F-4Es back in the 80s and used it a lot while low in MOAs to find and avoid VFR traffic).

But - I think it is REALLY foolish to depend on your transponder and ATC to keep you safe - apparently it didn't work in this case. If the Cessna had been carrying a PCAS or PowerFLARM he may have detected the F-16 in time to at least look for it.

Bottom line. See and Avoid really doesn't work. Big Sky Theory works MOST of the time. Transponders are good for letting airliners see you, but are not much help against VFR traffic or other gliders. PCAS is cheap, and works. Transponder and PF is the best current equipment fit, hands down.

Kirk
66
The other half of the solution is that ATC (whether Military or Civilian) should provide traffic separation between VFR and IFR traffic, and ALL high speed aircraft (including Military) should be equipped with TCAS or equivalent collision warning or avoidance systems.

This apparently wasn't the case in this instance. The moral of the story is that GA and Glider pilots can't rely on the other guys to avoid collisions. We need to proactively keep track of all the traffic in our vicinity and get out of the way. Low cost ADS-B (IN and OUT) systems and TIS-B are going to be a big help.

--
Dan Marotta

Indeed most GA never heard of PowerFlarm.
The soaring community is obviously ahead of power pilots with collision avoidance technology, and the reason is that we took the matter in our own hands and did not wait for the FAA to protect us. It is too bad that most GA is still depending on See and Avoid when the technology exists for more than a decade!

Ramy

The problem is, PowerFlarm is raised to the FAA's attention, it will need to be certified, raising the cost by around 5x.

Just so we do not get too high on our horse, I recently became aware (and check 4 sale adds on W&W) many gliders DO NOT have power Flarm. One pilot was just asking about renting a unit for the Standard Class Nationals, as he was not ready to buy yet! When i was flying powered aircraft, I had an S-mode transponder and Sandel HSI which helped point out traffic, on many occasions I was glad and I paid the money At that time TCAS was about $30,000.. I am not a firm believer in the "Big Sky" theory, from personal experience swapping paint, and several Very near misses while both myself and the other aircraft were under positive control, twice at an airport, Santa Barbra and Torrence.

On Saturday, July 11, 2015 at 7:23:43 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
Indeed most GA never heard of PowerFlarm.
The soaring community is obviously ahead of power pilots with collision avoidance technology, and the reason is that we took the matter in our own hands and did not wait for the FAA to protect us. It is too bad that most GA is still depending on See and Avoid when the technology exists for more than a decade!

Ramy

That's still true. But I have always found ATC to be quite vigilant in reporting traffic with flight following or IFR in VMC, if not necessarily providing collision avoidance vectors. They do still get radar alerts if you have a TXP, and sometimes primary targets. One time flying 500' offshore Monterey bay at 500' in a citabria, what was then called Monterey Approach called to tell me that there was a primary target my altitude 1 mile, "but it could be an 18-wheeler on Highway 1."

Well said. Thx!

On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 2:13:47 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Warning/Caution:

Surprised...thread has gone way off OP's intent.

On Sunday, July 12, 2015 at 7:30:07 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Friday, July 10, 2015 at 2:13:47 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Warning/Caution:

Surprised...thread has gone way off OP's intent.

Not really - the original OP's intent was to say that everybody should have a transponder to prevent the kind of midair that just happened between the Cessna 150 and the F-16. Since both of them had transponders, that is obviously not entirely correct.

My earlier comment about PowerFLARM was purely in reference to the PCAS function incorporated in PF - unlike others I think the approximately 30 seconds of warning that there is traffic closing at your altitude is extremely useful - because it gets your head out of the cockpit and your eyes focused on finding the approaching traffic. That is why I always have my ZAON PCAS when I fly power and non-PF club gliders, and have PF in my glider.

I didn't mean to suggest that GA should adopt PF - although it sure wouldn't hurt!

One comment on the whole "high speed jet" scenario: Unless you are transiting an active MOA, military aircraft will mostly be either be high up (above 18k) on an IFR flight plan (saving gas) or down low (below 1500' or so) on VR low level route. In a MOA or on a VR route they can be fast and maneuvering but a call to the local FSS will reveal if the MOA or VR route is active - if so it's a good idea to avoid them!

If the mil jet is in the IFR system (intrument ride, for example), they will be fying pretty much the same profile as a bizjet, perhaps a bit faster (300 to 350 knots until configured for landing, for example). Those speeds give you time to see and avoid, and that is where I think the benefit of a PCAS warning is highly valuable.

As far as waiting for F-16s, etc to get TCAS or ADS-B: Forget it. Probably never happen, because military jets are not certified and don't have to comply with FARs - and the budget wouldn't support it. I would expect the transports to get 1090ES ADS-b for international flights.

Sad event, interesting discussion, food for thought.

Kirk
66