Start Anywhere Cylinder (SSA rules proposal)

Dale Kramer wrote:

John and Gary

I answered this poll under then assumption that the best exit point be
used, not the last.

I am in favour of the best, as is the case for all turnpoints
thereafter, why throw in another rule of last exit or only from half
of cylinder, thats not what was asked in the poll.

Bumping prestart gaggles should not be the determining factor on start
location. First that assumes that the gaggles (now people are assuimg
there are more than one which is good) are on course line and that
they are not typical prestart gaggles where people are going in and
out of the thermal trying to stay below max start height. I would not
chance bumping a typical prestart gaggle and besides we have this on
course all the time.

Keep it simple and take the best exit point.

In my limited experience, out West it's true, is that if you're starting
through the top it's a good well defined thermal that it has a beneficial
climb rate.

As such, you should soon be over the top well enough that a on-course glide won't take you
through
the start cylinder again.

One case I can think this might not apply is with a strong headwind. In that case, you
could be an additional mile down-wind (and track) from the start.

In an effort to spread out the starts from the ideal point on a circle, I think this is a
reasonable
way to go.

On the other issue of 1 mile TP's I can only think that's going to reproduce the start zone
shenanigans (Respect to Netscape, that was in the spell-checker!) at each TP.
Trying to bump gaggles in order to go deeper/quicker into the TP.
Let's get everyone out of the TP ASAP so they can make indicidual decisions again.

Chris

Mark,

The prestart gaggle is a dangerous place... especially at nationals.
You have three types of traffic in this gaggle. The guys waiting at
the top flying circles at 80 knots, the guys below who are climbing
for all they're worth afraid they might lose the guys at the top, and
the guys coming in from all points on the compass and altitudes to see
who is in the prestart gaggle. This rule may just may be useful in
reducing that density. On many occassions I have wished that I could
get credit for a start 45 or 90 degrees around the circle (where there
was better lift and a better cloud field on course), but have been
forced into the gaggle because I couldn't justify the 4 or 5 minutes
I'd be giving away.

The two start cylinders at Tonopah reduced the anxiety level. Giving
us the rest of the space, without penalizing our using it, would
improve things even more. This time, I think the committee is
addressing a real problem with an effective solution. Problem is,
we've has so much smoke blowing in the name of safety that it's wiser
to be suspecious of its motives.

Just like the 1m turnpoint, the 1m finish cylinder, and even the 10m
AAT cylinder, there is only one best place to be at a given time. And
if there are 50 gliders in the neighborhood, that's where they'll wind
up.

I was almost hit twice at Hobbs this year in the prestart gaggle. God
only knows who I scared as I slammed the controls full stop to avoid
the guys who didn't see me.


(Mark Navarre) wrote in message ...
16.0 “Start Anywhere� Cylinder
Present rules for start cylinders measure start time from your exit point, but
measure distance from the point on the cylinder’s perimeter closest to your
first turnpoint.
16.1 Would you prefer that both start time and distance be measured from
your cylinder exit point?

Consider the negative implications of starting out the top of the back of the
cylinder and then bumping the pre-start gaggles for more speed. This would mix
racing traffic with non racing traffic, and high speed straight line traffic
with thermalling traffic. Yes, I know this happens already while on course,
but it's not safe there either. Why propose a rule just because the scoring
program can score it? The same logic was partly behind the 1 mile turn
cylinder (read between the lines of the poll). Starting anywhere sure adds
some new variables to "start gate roulette". So you say we will all figure out
the new optimum place to start, go there, and the point is moot? NOT. There
has been an optimum place to start for years with the current rules, but I
observe 20% of pilots have not caught on. That won't change with a new rule.
Why so many rules proposals, anyway? The rules were not that broken until a
committee broke them, while squawking "safety" among other things, and now
there are increasing efforts to protect us from ourselves.
I propose a new rule: 3 year rules stability. Allow discussions, polls, and
regional testing, but National level changes only on a three year cycle.
-
Mark Navarre
ASW-20 OD
California, USA
-

This seems sensible on initial inspection.

First, I don't believe that it is valuable to test
as a racing skill the ability to find the one thermal
that is closest to the optimal exit point. Finding
the best path to start out on course seems more consistent
with the idea of a start cylinder.

Second, I have frequently deviated several miles to
make a start that minimizes distance to the first turn,
but given up altitude in the process - as John points
out this is just a math problem to solve, but I think
racing should not rely too much on solving trigonometry
problems in the cockpit.

Third, there does often appear to be significant gaggling
near the optimal exit point, which gets particularly
dense at the top of lift or MSH. I can't prove that
this would go down under the alternative (leaching
might be too big a lure), but I don't see any way that
it would increase gaggling.

Some counterpoints to consider:

1) If there is a front-side rule, pilots will need
to be aware of where the 90-degree off-courseline points
on the cylinder are and the rules will have to account
for pilots who exit the back side. Not sure why anyone
would do this - but I'm sure someone would do it.

2) If the start cylinder is large we will introduce
more variability in distance flown across pilots, which
further dilutes the intuitive appeal of 'shortest time
wins' in ASTs. That is, it will be hard to compare
performance until the scoring program has processed
everyone's flight logs, which in my mind is a major
downside of the variable distance tasks - and bigger
turnpoint cylinders.

9B

At 15:00 18 September 2003, Chris Ocallaghan wrote:
Mark,

The prestart gaggle is a dangerous place... especially
at nationals.
You have three types of traffic in this gaggle. The
guys waiting at
the top flying circles at 80 knots, the guys below
who are climbing
for all they're worth afraid they might lose the guys
at the top, and
the guys coming in from all points on the compass and
altitudes to see
who is in the prestart gaggle. This rule may just may
be useful in
reducing that density. On many occassions I have wished
that I could
get credit for a start 45 or 90 degrees around the
circle (where there
was better lift and a better cloud field on course),
but have been
forced into the gaggle because I couldn't justify the
4 or 5 minutes
I'd be giving away.

The two start cylinders at Tonopah reduced the anxiety
level. Giving
us the rest of the space, without penalizing our using
it, would
improve things even more. This time, I think the committee
is
addressing a real problem with an effective solution.
Problem is,
we've has so much smoke blowing in the name of safety
that it's wiser
to be suspecious of its motives.

Just like the 1m turnpoint, the 1m finish cylinder,
and even the 10m
AAT cylinder, there is only one best place to be at
a given time. And
if there are 50 gliders in the neighborhood, that's
where they'll wind
up.

I was almost hit twice at Hobbs this year in the prestart
gaggle. God
only knows who I scared as I slammed the controls full
stop to avoid
the guys who didn't see me.


(Mark Navarre) wrote in message
news:...
16.0 “Start Anywhere� Cylinder
Present rules for start cylinders measure start time
from your exit point, but
measure distance from the point on the cylinder’s
perimeter closest to your
first turnpoint.
16.1 Would you prefer that both start time and distance
be measured from
your cylinder exit point?

Consider the negative implications of starting out
the top of the back of the
cylinder and then bumping the pre-start gaggles for
more speed. This would mix
racing traffic with non racing traffic, and high speed
straight line traffic
with thermalling traffic. Yes, I know this happens
already while on course,
but it's not safe there either. Why propose a rule
just because the scoring
program can score it? The same logic was partly behind
the 1 mile turn
cylinder (read between the lines of the poll). Starting
anywhere sure adds
some new variables to 'start gate roulette'. So you
say we will all figure out
the new optimum place to start, go there, and the
point is moot? NOT. There
has been an optimum place to start for years with
the current rules, but I
observe 20% of pilots have not caught on. That won't
change with a new rule.
Why so many rules proposals, anyway? The rules were
not that broken until a
committee broke them, while squawking 'safety' among
other things, and now
there are increasing efforts to protect us from ourselves.
I propose a new rule: 3 year rules stability. Allow
discussions, polls, and
regional testing, but National level changes only
on a three year cycle.
-
Mark Navarre
ASW-20 OD
California, USA
-

If the weather conditions do promote a start from the furthest point
from the first turnpoint, I for one would not bump the prestart
gaggle. This gaggle is highly unreliable for bumping. Typically it
is a bunch of gliders milling around (in and out of) a thermal trying
to stay below max start height. Its a crap shoot as to where the
thermal actually is for bumping. The start anywhere in start cylinder
is a great idea whose time has come. We are allowed total flexibilty
while on course to turn anywhere in the turn cylindrer, we should have
that right at the start.

Dale Kramer
K1





(Mark Navarre) wrote in message ...
16.0 “Start Anywhere� Cylinder
Present rules for start cylinders measure start time from your exit point, but
measure distance from the point on the cylinder’s perimeter closest to your
first turnpoint.
16.1 Would you prefer that both start time and distance be measured from
your cylinder exit point?

Consider the negative implications of starting out the top of the back of the
cylinder and then bumping the pre-start gaggles for more speed. This would mix
racing traffic with non racing traffic, and high speed straight line traffic
with thermalling traffic. Yes, I know this happens already while on course,
but it's not safe there either. Why propose a rule just because the scoring
program can score it? The same logic was partly behind the 1 mile turn
cylinder (read between the lines of the poll). Starting anywhere sure adds
some new variables to "start gate roulette". So you say we will all figure out
the new optimum place to start, go there, and the point is moot? NOT. There
has been an optimum place to start for years with the current rules, but I
observe 20% of pilots have not caught on. That won't change with a new rule.
Why so many rules proposals, anyway? The rules were not that broken until a
committee broke them, while squawking "safety" among other things, and now
there are increasing efforts to protect us from ourselves.
I propose a new rule: 3 year rules stability. Allow discussions, polls, and
regional testing, but National level changes only on a three year cycle.
-
Mark Navarre
ASW-20 OD
California, USA
-