High Speed Passes & the FAA

doing low passes down the closed runway does not constitute a "missed appch"
as described by other responses.

My "guess" would be that the altitude limit would be 500ft AGL..

BT

"JJ Sinclair" wrote in message
...
Isn't there an FAR that says aviators will not fly below 500 feet, if over
people, places or things, unless they are in the act of landing? This
question
was asked by a pilots wife/crew at a nationals. Her motorhome was located
on a
permanently closed runway about 500 feet from the active runway. The
finish
line was over the closed runway. I didn't have an answer for her, do you?
JJ Sinclair

JJ's SOLUTION,
Mandatory 500 foot/ 1 mile finish cylinder, with
graduated penalty.
JJ Sinclair

Or move the finish point.

JJ,

I dont believe your only concern is with a possible
breach of FAR's. If it were you would sit back happy
in the knowledge that you are not breaking the law
and allow everyone else to make up their own mind.

Why do people feel they have to legislate for things
that may never happen? Whats next? Why not ban variometers?
I certainly look at my variometer much more around
the flight than I do when executing a very safe, thought-out
competition finish.

Let people make their own decision.

Owain

A self-confessed fun-a-holic.

At 16:30 02 October 2003, Jj Sinclair wrote:
Hi Casey,
How's that LS-8, I sold you? Your not doing low passes
with it, are you?

Just because we havent had a disastrous accident near
the finish-line, doesn't
mean we never will. I look at the threat it poses.
Many sailplanes headed for
what I call a *scheduled mid-air collision*. What the
hell is that, you ask?
Its the same place (finish-line), Same altitude (50feet),
the only thing
that's not scheduled is the time. We have narrowed
that down by telling
everyone to be back in 3 hours (ups, 3:15 now with
the +15 thing) So now we
have most of the guys coming in low and fast, all headed
for the same spot and
shooting for the same altitude and close to the same
time. The guys are good
aviators and the guys in the nationals are REAL good
aviators, but they are all
focused on the finish line and quite busy; Don't go
below 50 feet, Don't go
above red-line, Dump the water, Don't forget to dump
the tail tank, Don't lose
sight of the guy in front of you, Ups, didn't page
up on the GPS, to get
altitude & distance together. What was that altitude
correction factor? WHOA,
we almost hit the ground, STOP playing with the GPS.
Which way are they
landing? No wind sock out here. Haven't heard anything
on the radio, am I on
the right frequency? There's an AWOS tower out here
somewhere? What's that
shadow moving over me?......................................Crunch
!

I see the collision at Bridgeport as a scheduled mid-air
also. Only in this
case, the last variable was altitude. Both started
at the same time, so
approaching Bridgeport at about the same time isn't
out of the question. The
point was the same, Bridgeport. Chance, or the altitude
gained in the last
thermal (shared?) was the final parameter that was
met on that tragic day.

My real point in the post was, I think we are breaking
FAR's and I think we
should do something about it. Now before all the guard
house lawyers jump me,
allow me some more outlandish statements;

1. The situation I described could be called an Air
Show. The FAA has very
specific rules about what is allowed and where it is
done in an air show. Who
wants to argue (in court) that its not an air show,
its just our way to let our
macho-crocho's display their stuff.

2. Some have said to simply move the finish line. Well,
it must be fairly close
to the runway or we won't be able to get back there
after our low altitude air
show. Besides, the macho-crocho's need an audiance.
Who's going to see them way
out there in the weeds?

3.Some pull-ups I have seen, meet the FAA definition
of aerobatics, and that
opens up a whole new can of whip-ass the Federallies
may bring to bear on our
little contest.

4. If we make the 500' / 1 mile finish cylinder, MANDATORY,
all issues with the
FAR's will be dealt with.
JJ Sinclair

I dont believe your only concern is with a possible
breach of FAR's. If it were you would sit back happy
in the knowledge that you are not breaking the law
and allow everyone else to make up their own mind.

That was a-hell-of-a-thing to say, Owain. Didn't we learn anything from
Tonapah? I think all the Directors did, time for the rest of us to get on
board. Don't you know that one more serious accident could shut everything
down? I'm not just talking about contests, but the SSA as well.

I know one thing, I won't work in any contest that uses the macho-crotcho
finish gate, just for personal liability reasons.
JJ Sinclair

We call our location and speed eg:10k 120 the mill, 5k 130 bombay gardens,
1k vne stevees quarry, this works on airfields we know ,
simply institute a location/reporting point that everyone knows or has been
designated which gives an immediate heads up response by the pilot
"someone is near me" where is he?
"JJ Sinclair" wrote in message
...
Hi Casey,
How's that LS-8, I sold you? Your not doing low passes with it, are you?

Just because we havent had a disastrous accident near the finish-line,
doesn't
mean we never will. I look at the threat it poses. Many sailplanes headed
for
what I call a *scheduled mid-air collision*. What the hell is that, you
ask?
Its the same place (finish-line), Same altitude (50feet), the only thing
that's not scheduled is the time. We have narrowed that down by telling
everyone to be back in 3 hours (ups, 3:15 now with the +15 thing) So now
we
have most of the guys coming in low and fast, all headed for the same spot
and
shooting for the same altitude and close to the same time. The guys are
good
aviators and the guys in the nationals are REAL good aviators, but they
are all
focused on the finish line and quite busy; Don't go below 50 feet, Don't
go
above red-line, Dump the water, Don't forget to dump the tail tank, Don't
lose
sight of the guy in front of you, Ups, didn't page up on the GPS, to get
altitude & distance together. What was that altitude correction factor?
WHOA,
we almost hit the ground, STOP playing with the GPS. Which way are they
landing? No wind sock out here. Haven't heard anything on the radio, am I
on
the right frequency? There's an AWOS tower out here somewhere? What's that
shadow moving over me?......................................Crunch!

I see the collision at Bridgeport as a scheduled mid-air also. Only in
this
case, the last variable was altitude. Both started at the same time, so
approaching Bridgeport at about the same time isn't out of the question.
The
point was the same, Bridgeport. Chance, or the altitude gained in the last
thermal (shared?) was the final parameter that was met on that tragic day.

My real point in the post was, I think we are breaking FAR's and I think
we
should do something about it. Now before all the guard house lawyers jump
me,
allow me some more outlandish statements;

1. The situation I described could be called an Air Show. The FAA has very
specific rules about what is allowed and where it is done in an air show.
Who
wants to argue (in court) that its not an air show, its just our way to
let our
macho-crocho's display their stuff.

2. Some have said to simply move the finish line. Well, it must be fairly
close
to the runway or we won't be able to get back there after our low altitude
air
show. Besides, the macho-crocho's need an audiance. Who's going to see
them way
out there in the weeds?

3.Some pull-ups I have seen, meet the FAA definition of aerobatics, and
that
opens up a whole new can of whip-ass the Federallies may bring to bear on
our
little contest.

4. If we make the 500' / 1 mile finish cylinder, MANDATORY, all issues
with the
FAR's will be dealt with.
JJ Sinclair

Jimbob:

Have you been flying high in Arial without proper oxygen? Fried 'dat
brain again?

A missed approach only applies to instrument flying. You been doin
dat also??

It's a LOW APPROACH. - Get out dem readin glasses and reads dat AIM
sometime so you can gets some edumacation.

Keep actin dat way an folks gonna think you bees a dumb ol surveyer!

-Deputy Dog

at first approach is Missed Approach. Dancin on clouds
Keep it up!

Jim Culp USA
GatorCity Florida

Why thanks for asking JJ....the LS-8 is just fine....probably wouldn't have
sold it to me had you known that I'd be breaking all them thar FAR's with it
eh? Youdamnright I'm-a doin' them thar high speed, belly scratchin', water
dumpin', crowd pleasin', worm burnin' passes! We country folk down here in
ol' Arizony think that if ya can't knock over your empty beer can with your
belly then you're way too damn high!

And boy howdy do ya'll up thar know all them high falutin words like
"safety" and " liability" that make my old pumpkin head spin but they must
be mighty important since they scare so many people when ya'll say 'em!
Sure does make folks sit up and listen eh?

Well ya'll take care up there and if ya ever wanna fly with us heathens that
like to have fun down here in ol' Arizony then ya'll come on down!!!

KC

Casey,
What do you do when you find a practice or procedure that could be dangerous
(fatal) to a patient in the ER?

Do you just say, That won't happen again?

I like things as they are.

I'm not going to say anything to anybody
about this.
JJ Sinclair

Did I miss something? When did finish gates become so dangerous?

I pretty sure JJ has used many finish gates I am surprised that they
are now so dangerous he wouldn't consider using one.

Brian, never finished below 800' even with a gate.




(JJ Sinclair) wrote in message ...


I dont believe your only concern is with a possible
breach of FAR's. If it were you would sit back happy
in the knowledge that you are not breaking the law
and allow everyone else to make up their own mind.

That was a-hell-of-a-thing to say, Owain. Didn't we learn anything from
Tonapah? I think all the Directors did, time for the rest of us to get on
board. Don't you know that one more serious accident could shut everything
down? I'm not just talking about contests, but the SSA as well.

I know one thing, I won't work in any contest that uses the macho-crotcho
finish gate, just for personal liability reasons.
JJ Sinclair

My patients in the OR receive the best care that anyone can provide JJ. I
have gone to huge lengths both personally and professionally to assure this.
They trust me to be the best and I owe them that. I am board certified in
three separate American Board specialties. Now what does doing high speed
passes have to do with that?!

You once again have proven the point that there are differences between what
you are expected to provide as a service both legally and professionally and
what responsibility you have to assure your own personal well being. The
final line is that the government has pretty much decided that what you do
to yourself is OK even if it means harm. So why is that so difficult for
you to let happen in the soaring community? And don't give me that nonsense
again about the RV at the end of the runway....it's no safer than standing
by the side of the highway waiting for your ride.

By all means go slow and stay high. Please don't rain on my parade though.

KC