Lilium: the world's first 250mph, 300 mile range, electric vertical take off and landing jet

On Mon, 12 Dec 2016 18:50:25 -0000, wrote:

Again, are you saying the silly press release was written by the design
engineers?

Here's the performance statement from the engineers:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://lilium-aviation.com/about.html

Lilium Aviation
about the vision

What if the way you thought about distances radically changed?
Imagine, you could have breakfast in Munich, go shopping in Milano and enjoy
dinner in Marseille.

Imagine being able to bypass lines, jams, cancellations, and distances easily
and fast.

Imagine environmental pollution no longer being a concern because all
transportation is electric.

Imagine being safer than you’ve ever been in a vehicle.
Imagine the freedom, the elegance, and the fun.

In the future there will be a completely new way of commuting. People will move
to rural areas while working in big cities, because long distances can be
covered in a fraction of the traditional time. The aggressive rise of rent in
city centers will be halted. Federal states will become metropolises.

Concrete-covered landscapes will become green again; the costly maintenance of
our current infrastructure will become obsolete. Commuters will use VTOL
aircrafts to land directly on landing pads extending from their balconies, on
rooftops and assigned landing areas. No need to wait for the bus, no need to
conform with plane and train schedules. Go wherever you want, whenever you want
- take the Lilium Jet! We are building it.

about the product
Take-off and landing: Vertically
Number of passengers: 2
Number of electric fan engines: 36
Max. take-off weight: 600 kg
Payload: 200 kg
Estimated cruising velocity: 250 - 300 km/h / 160 - 190 mph
Estimated range: 300 km / 190 mi
Power: 320 kW / 435 hp

About the team

Founded in February 2015 by four visionary aerospace engineers and product
designers from the Technical University of Munich, Lilium is now a thriving
start up driven by the passion to revolutionize personal transportation.

Financially secure thanks to reputable investors and supported by the European
Space Agency (ESA), Lilium has flourished into a team of more than 35
world-class engineers, designers and pioneers. At Lilium, we are active
pioneers of tomorrow´s technology. We excel at innovation and strive for
perfection. And we want to be the first and the best in electric VTOL aviation.

Funding and supporting partners
BIC
Climate-KIC
U-TUM
Contact Lilium

Lilium GmbH, Friedrichshafener Strasse 1, 82205 Gilching, Germany
================================================== ===========================

On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 15:22:51 +1300, george152 wrote:

The bit that I don't get is the jet claim.
And helicopters difficult to fly ?????
Really....
And the claimed airspeed --- in a helicopter ?????
Reminds me of the 'plane in every garage' 30's mantra...
And look how successful that wasn't


It reminds me of the Moller Skycar M400: http://www.moller.com/
Video: https://youtu.be/FY85eExk7Zo
https://youtu.be/gOR_SzLW2Ns

Six air-cars: https://youtu.be/WygPLO_-8-8

Larry Dighera wrote:
On Mon, 12 Dec 2016 18:50:25 -0000, wrote:

Again, are you saying the silly press release was written by the design
engineers?

Here's the performance statement from the engineers:

That is wonderful but misses the point and ignores what I said.

It is the language of the press release that is silly.

It is full of arm waving, speculation, innuendo, half truths, and flat
out lies.

snip silly prose now repeated several times

- take the Lilium Jet! We are building it.

It is NOT a jet.

about the product
Take-off and landing: Vertically
Number of passengers: 2
Number of electric fan engines: 36
Max. take-off weight: 600 kg
Payload: 200 kg
Estimated cruising velocity: 250 - 300 km/h / 160 - 190 mph
Estimated range: 300 km / 190 mi
Power: 320 kW / 435 hp

Whoopee!!

snip more silly prose now repeated several times

--
Jim Pennino

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 08:32:00 +0100, Gerhard Strangar wrote:

Larry Dighera wrote:

Lilium GmbH, Friedrichshafener Strasse 1, 82205 Gilching, Germany

Now it all makes sense, that's right at the end of a (unsually inactive)
runway. That runway was used by the Dornier GmbH (now part of the Airbus
group), which tested the VTOL cargo plane Do 31. They built prototypes
and then cancelled the program when it no longer met the NATO
requirements. Looks like a second attempt.

Interesting. I recall seeing a small runway next to a full sized runway in one
of the videos on their web site.

Their latest )Dec 2016) video is he
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjqnTYKYMwM . Jim will get a kick out of the
use of the term 'jet' used in this promotional piece. Apparently they have
designed a new electric motor that resembles a turbine, shown in the video.

Here's another innovator discussing a VTOL supersonic electric "jet":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erjdYiwoYAo

Larry Dighera wrote:
On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 08:32:00 +0100, Gerhard Strangar wrote:

Larry Dighera wrote:

Lilium GmbH, Friedrichshafener Strasse 1, 82205 Gilching, Germany

Now it all makes sense, that's right at the end of a (unsually inactive)
runway. That runway was used by the Dornier GmbH (now part of the Airbus
group), which tested the VTOL cargo plane Do 31. They built prototypes
and then cancelled the program when it no longer met the NATO
requirements. Looks like a second attempt.

Interesting. I recall seeing a small runway next to a full sized runway in one
of the videos on their web site.

Their latest )Dec 2016) video is he
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjqnTYKYMwM . Jim will get a kick out of the
use of the term 'jet' used in this promotional piece. Apparently they have
designed a new electric motor that resembles a turbine, shown in the video.

Here's another innovator discussing a VTOL supersonic electric "jet":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erjdYiwoYAo

Who would like to fly in an airplane designed by someone ignorant of
basic aviation terminology?


--
Jim Pennino

Larry Dighera wrote:
On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 08:32:00 +0100, Gerhard Strangar wrote:

Larry Dighera wrote:

Lilium GmbH, Friedrichshafener Strasse 1, 82205 Gilching, Germany

Now it all makes sense, that's right at the end of a (unsually inactive)
runway. That runway was used by the Dornier GmbH (now part of the Airbus
group), which tested the VTOL cargo plane Do 31. They built prototypes
and then cancelled the program when it no longer met the NATO
requirements. Looks like a second attempt.

Interesting. I recall seeing a small runway next to a full sized runway in one
of the videos on their web site.

Their latest )Dec 2016) video is he
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjqnTYKYMwM . Jim will get a kick out of the
use of the term 'jet' used in this promotional piece. Apparently they have
designed a new electric motor that resembles a turbine, shown in the video.

There is a cat that hangs out in my back yard that resembles a cow. Does
that make it a cow?

The video starts off with two claims: they will eliminate cars and
infrastructure.

As for the first claim, it is just too ridiculous to bother further comment.

As for the second claim, a large, clear flat area IS infrastructure and
would be new infrastructure.


--
Jim Pennino

On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 18:39:55 -0000, wrote:

Larry Dighera wrote:
On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 08:32:00 +0100, Gerhard Strangar wrote:

Larry Dighera wrote:

Lilium GmbH, Friedrichshafener Strasse 1, 82205 Gilching, Germany

Now it all makes sense, that's right at the end of a (unsually inactive)
runway. That runway was used by the Dornier GmbH (now part of the Airbus
group), which tested the VTOL cargo plane Do 31. They built prototypes
and then cancelled the program when it no longer met the NATO
requirements. Looks like a second attempt.

Interesting. I recall seeing a small runway next to a full sized runway in one
of the videos on their web site.

Their latest )Dec 2016) video is he
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjqnTYKYMwM . Jim will get a kick out of the
use of the term 'jet' used in this promotional piece. Apparently they have
designed a new electric motor that resembles a turbine, shown in the video.

There is a cat that hangs out in my back yard that resembles a cow. Does
that make it a cow?


What is your definition of a jet?

Was the Nazi V1 powered by a jet engine?

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/jet?s=t
jet
noun
1.
a stream of a liquid, gas, or small solid particles forcefully shooting
forth from a nozzle, orifice, etc.
2.
something that issues in such a stream, as water or gas.
3.
a spout or nozzle for emitting liquid or gas:
a gas jet.
-------------

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/jet-engine
jet engine
noun
1.
an engine, as an aircraft engine, that produces forward motion by the
rearward exhaust of a jet of fluid or heated air and gases.
-------------

There's a clue he
http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/Scienc...p?NewsNum=2712
https://web.archive.org/web/20111011...ngoC_2AP01.pdf

Of course, there's always the possible issue of language (mis)translation...


The video starts off with two claims: they will eliminate cars and
infrastructure.

As for the first claim, it is just too ridiculous to bother further comment.


Granted the elimination of automobiles is a fanciful notion in Los Angeles, but
in Europe, perhaps not so much.


As for the second claim, a large, clear flat area IS infrastructure and
would be new infrastructure.


It's difficult to argue against your opinion. However, a flat spot need not
have lighting, radio aids to navigation, paving, structures, etc, so it could
be very minimal infrastructure compared to an FAA certified airport or
heliport.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not defending the Lilium marketing puffery, and am
indeed skeptical of the performance claims. Given the information below, the
most difficult claim for me to swallow, is a 435 HP FAA certified Light Sport
Aircraft. Perhaps there is a European class to which the Lilium may reasonably
be expected to conform, or such a revolutionary design may warrant creation of
an entirely class. After all, regulations shouldn't stifle innovation, but
provide safe and orderly rules so it may flourish.

At any rate, the Lilium project has generated significant venture capital, but
until a full-sized aircraft flies, and empirically substantiates the claimed
performance figures, the Lilium just another Molleresque vaporware dream,
IMNSHO. But where would technology be without its dreamers who's visionary
pursuits have led to radical improvements in the human condition?



================================================== ===========================
https://www.eaa.org/en/eaa/aviation-...ort-pilot-rule
FAA SPORT PILOT RULE
This is a synopsis of the definition of a light sport aircraft category, the
requirements to obtain a sport pilot certificate, and requirements to obtain a
repairman certificate with a maintenance or inspection rating. View the
complete FAA regulation

The Light Sport Aircraft Rule:
The FAA defines a light sport aircraft as an aircraft, other than a helicopter
or powered-lift that, since its original certification, has continued to meet
the following:

Max. Gross Takeoff Weight: 1,320 lbs (1,430 lbs for seaplanes)

Max. Stall Speed: 51 mph / 45 knots CAS

Max. Speed in Level Flight (VH): 138 mph / 120 knots CAS

Seats: Two (max.)

Engines / Motors: One (max. if powered.)

Propeller: Fixed-pitch or ground adjustable

Cabin: Unpressurized

Landing Gear: Fixed (except for seaplanes and gliders)

In addition, light sport aircraft:

Can be manufactured and sold ready-to-fly under a new Special Light Sport
Aircraft certification category. Aircraft must meet industry consensus
standards. Aircraft under this certification may be used for sport and
recreation, flight training, and aircraft rental.

Can be licensed Experimental Light Sport Aircraft (E-LSA) if kit- or
plans-built. Aircraft under this certification may be used only for sport and
recreation and flight instruction for the owner of the aircraft.

Can be licensed Experimental Light Sport Aircraft (E-LSA) if the aircraft has
previously been operated as an ultralight but does not meet the FAR Part 103
definition of an ultralight vehicle. These aircraft must have been transitioned
to E-LSA category no later than January 31, 2008.

Will have a standard FAA registration - N-number.
Category and class includes: Airplane (Land/Sea), Gyroplane, Airship, Balloon,
Weight-Shift-Control ("Trike", Land/Sea), Glider, and Powered Parachute.

U.S. or foreign manufacture of light sport aircraft is authorized.
Aircraft with a standard airworthiness certificate that meet above
specifications may be flown by sport pilots. However, the aircraft must remain
in standard category and cannot be changed to light sport aircraft category.
May be operated at night if the aircraft is equipped per FAR 91.205, if such
operations are allowed by the aircraft's operating limitations and the pilot
holds at least a Private Pilot certificate and a minimum of a third-class
medical.
================================================== ==============

Larry Dighera wrote:
On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 18:39:55 -0000, wrote:

Larry Dighera wrote:
On Thu, 15 Dec 2016 08:32:00 +0100, Gerhard Strangar wrote:

Larry Dighera wrote:

Lilium GmbH, Friedrichshafener Strasse 1, 82205 Gilching, Germany

Now it all makes sense, that's right at the end of a (unsually inactive)
runway. That runway was used by the Dornier GmbH (now part of the Airbus
group), which tested the VTOL cargo plane Do 31. They built prototypes
and then cancelled the program when it no longer met the NATO
requirements. Looks like a second attempt.

Interesting. I recall seeing a small runway next to a full sized runway in one
of the videos on their web site.

Their latest )Dec 2016) video is he
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjqnTYKYMwM . Jim will get a kick out of the
use of the term 'jet' used in this promotional piece. Apparently they have
designed a new electric motor that resembles a turbine, shown in the video.

There is a cat that hangs out in my back yard that resembles a cow. Does
that make it a cow?


What is your definition of a jet?

An internal combustion airbreathing engine that produces thrust via
exhaust gases, like most people.

Was the Nazi V1 powered by a jet engine?

A ramjet, a subset of jet engines.

snip

Of course, there's always the possible issue of language (mis)translation...

When the speaker is speaking English?



The video starts off with two claims: they will eliminate cars and
infrastructure.

As for the first claim, it is just too ridiculous to bother further comment.


Granted the elimination of automobiles is a fanciful notion in Los Angeles, but
in Europe, perhaps not so much.

More so in Europe.

Land is at a premium in most of Europe and this thing takes about 3 times
the area of a car to park plus a much wider taxi way to get from the
heliport to the parking area.


As for the second claim, a large, clear flat area IS infrastructure and
would be new infrastructure.


It's difficult to argue against your opinion. However, a flat spot need not
have lighting, radio aids to navigation, paving, structures, etc, so it could
be very minimal infrastructure compared to an FAA certified airport or
heliport.

First, do you really think the FAA or any other aviation governing
agency in the world is going to allow these things to land and take off
just anywhere?

Look around you as you drive around; how many places would have the land
required to provide a heliport, taxi ways, and parking areas for these
things even it were just dirt?

Don't get me wrong. I'm not defending the Lilium marketing puffery, and am
indeed skeptical of the performance claims. Given the information below, the
most difficult claim for me to swallow, is a 435 HP FAA certified Light Sport
Aircraft. Perhaps there is a European class to which the Lilium may reasonably
be expected to conform, or such a revolutionary design may warrant creation of
an entirely class. After all, regulations shouldn't stifle innovation, but
provide safe and orderly rules so it may flourish.

There is already a class of aircraft that covers the Lilium; it is the
same class as the Osprey.

You are overlooking the fact that it is a retractable and supposedly
goes 190 mph and both take it out of the Light Sport class.

At any rate, the Lilium project has generated significant venture capital, but
until a full-sized aircraft flies, and empirically substantiates the claimed
performance figures, the Lilium just another Molleresque vaporware dream,
IMNSHO. But where would technology be without its dreamers who's visionary
pursuits have led to radical improvements in the human condition?

I would feel better that the thing had a snowball's chance in Hell of
success if the press releases weren't full of outright falsehoods, arm
waving, and wild ass speculation.

snip

FAA SPORT PILOT RULE

snip

Max. Speed in Level Flight (VH): 138 mph / 120 knots CAS

Fails here.

Engines / Motors: One (max. if powered.)

Fails here.

snip

Landing Gear: Fixed (except for seaplanes and gliders)

Fails here.

snip remainder of irrelevant stuff


--
Jim Pennino