Does everyone teach this way?

What aspects of flying are you having difficulty with (or your
instructors think you're having difficulty with)?

... Approaches and
landings characterized by sufficient brain overloaded that I fail to
pay attention to something I should be attending to.

It's called "pilot workload" and it definitely takes time to deal with. One
by one, those many things start to take less of your full attention, so the
pieces fit together better. I think it's part of the instructor's job to
introduce them one at a time, but when you switch instructors weekly (as you
and I do), it's hard for them to know what you've integrated and what is
still new to you. At this stage in my learning I'm now able to analyze which
parts of approach and landing have recently caused overload. I debrief
myself at the end of the day and make some notes, and I try to review those
before the next day's lesson so that they don't catch me by surprise.

Sounds like you've had some bad luck. I suggest the following: post to
the group where you live and what you consider a reasonable trip to
the gliderport (eg, 1 hour each way). Ask that responders email you
directly rather than posting to the news group. My guess is you'll get
some suggestions on both location and individuals. By the way, a good
teacher follows a syllabus and starts and ends each training flight
with some ground school. You might also consider taking a week's
vacation to finish up at a reputable school. I completed my pre solo
training over two weekends at Ridge Soaring in PA way back when. You
don't want to know what I payed!

OC


(Dancebert) wrote in message . com...
Does everbody teach soaring the same way? If so, excuse me while I
step outside and scream.

I've had 24 flights with 4 different instructors at two different
schools. (I switched schools quickly after realizing that there are
some places where humans were not meant to be in August) The
instruction mode all four used I describe is "I'll tell you what to do
but I'm not going to tell you how to do it". After I screw up a few
times, figure out enough of what happened to ask an intelligent
question, they will tell me how to do it. What I want to know is why
the bleep don't they tell me in the first place?

I understand aviation is 100 years old and that instruction techniques
have had more than enough time to be refined, and I have no doubt that
the instruction mode I've encountered is the most successful at
turning the most people into pilots. I also know there are other
modes of learning, like 1) Be told and then do, 2) Be shown and then
do, 3) Do and correct or be corrected (aka Trial and Error), 4) Some
mixture of 1-3. I'm sure there are others, but it's been too long
since I took Psych 101.

So, is learning to fly always in the mode I've encountered? Will it
do any good to convince my instructor that I respond best to other
modes of learning?

At 01:12 21 October 2003, Dancebert wrote:
On 20 Oct 2003 15:43:03 -0700,
(Mike Stramba)
wrote:

What part of the world are you in? (RAS/Usenet is
world wide !)
Los Angeles

Can you give some examples of 'I'll tell you what
to do'
instructions that you've received ?
Slips, stalls, turning stalls, stalls with spoilers,
boxing the wake,
flying at minimum sink, 60 degree bank turns, speed
control, etc.


If you have been succesful with thermalling as a HG
pilot, my suggestion is to get comfortable with that
in the sailplane. The tow and landings will come with
time. Before you fry yourself on tow-give it to the
instructor. Then center and thermal up in good lift-take
a few deep breaths and continue to stalls and steep
turns. If you have been succesful as a HG pilot, sailplanes
will come to you, especially once you figure out what
to do with your feet.



What aspects of flying are you having difficulty with
(or your
instructors think you're having difficulty with)?

Speed control. Boxing the wake when it's turbulant.
Approaches and
landings characterized by sufficient brain overloaded
that I fail to
pay attention to something I should be attending to.
Attending to
variometer while on tow, and if I do, remembering two
minutes later
where the lift was. Consistently flying ahead of the
plane.

Dancebert writes
Does everbody teach soaring the same way? If so, excuse me while I
step outside and scream.

I don't think so. And an airfield is a great place to scream. Lots of
open space. So go ahead and vent

I've had 24 flights with 4 different instructors at two different
schools.

So you're a little ahead of me in the flights department (Much more if
you take into consideration your HG experience). 10 flights, 4 different
instructors. My first 'trial' lesson was at a different club over in
Wales, which prompted me to join my local club, the rest have been here.

I haven't been anything but terribly impressed. Both by the existing
club members and by all of the instructors I've have the privilege of
flying with. All of them, to a man, remind me of my Father in the way
that they teach. Dad's an ex-college lecturer now driving instructor,
and has the most laid back, relaxed, coaching attitude towards his
students that you can imagine.

The "rotation" of instructors in my case is unavoidable. Instruction in
the UK is, for the most part (at least as I understand it) done at the
club level on a voluntary, unpaid basis. Were I to only want to fly with
a specific instructor, my flying time would be cut to a quarter waiting
for him/her to come back around on the duty roster. Besides, I
personally find that the subtle differences in teaching technique
between the different instructors quite interesting, and sometimes
informative.

I've got to admit, each time I've "picked up" a new instructor, it's
been with some trepidation. Aside from anything else, having a complete
stranger in the back seat is a bit unnerving, especially when they're an
unknown quantity. I'm more used to things being the other way around.
But each time that's gone, almost from the moment we release from launch
and they hand over control.

(I switched schools quickly after realizing that there are some
places where humans were not meant to be in August) The instruction
mode all four used I describe is "I'll tell you what to do but I'm not
going to tell you how to do it". After I screw up a few times, figure
out enough of what happened to ask an intelligent question, they will
tell me how to do it.

I'm pretty certain it's been a combination of both, for me. For the most
part, especially in the early stages, they were at especial pains to
inform me upfront of anything critical to my (and their) safety, to make
sure I knew up front what was coming, what was going on and what was
expected of me. They were quick to check if I had any questions and
answer them if I did, but at the same time, there was clearly an
intentional effort on their part not to overload me with information.

They were also very calm in their correction. For example, the other
Wednesday I surprised my instructor by forgetting to look out in the
direction of a left turn before I rolled into it. There was this pause,
and then in a somewhat laconic, utterly laid back tone of voice he
remarked with words to the effect that it was "interesting" to "note"
that I hadn't looked out. The combination of embarrassment and my own
frustration at making myself look bad was a much more effective teaching
instrument than any harsher rebuke or chastisement could have been.
Needless to say, I haven't made that mistake again. Yet.

By the same token, since I started I've been busily devouring every bit
of written information on the subject that I can lay my hands on, so
most of the principle of what I'm running into has at least that vague,
once read not yet experienced familiarity.

There is a specific syllabus that all students (and thus instructors) at
the club follow, and a card to track progress. My last few flights the
emphasis seems to have changed. Anything new, the instructors quiz me
first on whether I've come across it before, then if I say yes, they ask
me to talk them through it. Which is good, because when I get it wrong
(for example, last Saturday one of the things was on how to trim out the
flight - I knew the effects of the trimming lever, had done it the week
before, and thought I could guess the procedure for doing it again, even
though I couldn't remember it - I was wrong, and got things backwards) I
then get talked through the correct procedure which fixes it better in
my mind than simply being told in the first place.

Then again, I am something of a tactile, inquisitive student. I like to
know ahead the things that I don't yet know (thus the reading - I'm
something of a compulsive/obsessive information magpie) and then like to
experience the thing first hand for myself and relate the actual fact to
my own (often mistaken) preconceptions.

For example, my first flight was (in contrast to those since) an
aerotow. When we reached the release point, the instructor just pulled
the release and then afterwards apologised (with a quiet grin on his
face put there by my open-mouthed, gaping reaction) for not forewarning
me of what was actually going to happen as a result.

But actually, given the choice, that's exactly the way I would have had
it. The sudden rush, exhilaration and surprise of going from tow speed
down to about 30kts (in the open cockpit of an old 1940's T-21) in a few
brief seconds... The bang and thump, followed by the sensation of
falling for a moment and then suddenly just hanging there in the air
above the Welsh mountains (I'll swear I could actually feel the wind
pushing from behind on the back of my neck - an illusion I suspect, but
convincing all the same). The sensation of absolute freedom ... I
suspect that memory is going to stay with me forever, and I can't help
but feel that had I somehow been given warning of what to expect, it
would have diluted the experience.

But again, I digress.

What I want to know is why the bleep don't they tell me in the first
place?

I mean no disrespect, and nor would I assume that you haven't done so,
but have you expressed such a preference to your instructors up front?
We're all a little different in how we learn and the methods that suit
us best. We're equally different in how we teach. I understand that the
instruction format and arguably the methods are a little different on
this side of the Atlantic, but the one thing I've noticed as a common
thread through all of my instructors - in fact, everybody I've met in
the club - is the absolute passion that they hold for gliding, and the
pleasure that they get from passing on the benefit of their experience
on to others. That's one thing I don't believe can be different
regardless of where you are, be it LA or Gloucestershire, UK.

Anyway, not sure if any of this is any more help than a mere exchange of
battle-scars, but I wish you the very best of luck in finding an
instructor you can learn comfortably from.

--
Bill Gribble

/----------------------------------\
| http://www.cotswoldgliding.co.uk |
| http://members.aol.com/annsweb |
| http://www.shatteredkingdoms.org |
\----------------------------------/

"Bill Gribble" wrote in
message .. .
Dancebert writes
Does everbody teach soaring the same way? If so, excuse me while I
step outside and scream.

snip

I haven't been anything but terribly impressed. Both by the existing
club members and by all of the instructors I've have the privilege of
flying with. All of them, to a man, remind me of my Father in the way
that they teach. Dad's an ex-college lecturer now driving instructor,
and has the most laid back, relaxed, coaching attitude towards his
students that you can imagine.

The "rotation" of instructors in my case is unavoidable. Instruction in
the UK is, for the most part (at least as I understand it) done at the
club level on a voluntary, unpaid basis. Were I to only want to fly with
a specific instructor, my flying time would be cut to a quarter waiting
for him/her to come back around on the duty roster. Besides, I
personally find that the subtle differences in teaching technique
between the different instructors quite interesting, and sometimes
informative.

I've got to admit, each time I've "picked up" a new instructor, it's
been with some trepidation. Aside from anything else, having a complete
stranger in the back seat is a bit unnerving, especially when they're an
unknown quantity. I'm more used to things being the other way around.
But each time that's gone, almost from the moment we release from launch
and they hand over control.

snip
The difference being Dancebert is flying in the US where there is no
national syllabus nor centralized instructor training, per se, and Bill
Gribble is flying in the UK where both are in use.

Frank Whiteley

In order to grow, babies need:

- Someone who loves them, and helps them quickly when they cry

- Someone who gets to know them

- Someone to keep them safe and comfortable

- Chances to move about and do new things



(Quote from California Children and Families Commission Pamphlet
"You Child's Learning Starts Early")


When it comes to learning to fly, I'm just a big baby ;-P

No, everyone does not teach that way. I can't imagine a good instructor who
does. In fact such techniques are in direct conflict with how adult
learners learn. They also conflict with the FAA's instruction principles.
While can argue with the specific techniques the FAA recommends, they are
proven sound. Simply stated... 1 - instructor tells, instructor does; 2 -
student tells, instructor does; 3 - student tell, student does; 4 - student
does, instructor evaluates. While there are many variations that work well,
your experience does not fit into any accepted or effective teaching
technique.


"Dancebert" wrote in message
om...
Does everbody teach soaring the same way? If so, excuse me while I
step outside and scream.

I've had 24 flights with 4 different instructors at two different
schools. (I switched schools quickly after realizing that there are
some places where humans were not meant to be in August) The
instruction mode all four used I describe is "I'll tell you what to do
but I'm not going to tell you how to do it". After I screw up a few
times, figure out enough of what happened to ask an intelligent
question, they will tell me how to do it. What I want to know is why
the bleep don't they tell me in the first place?

I understand aviation is 100 years old and that instruction techniques
have had more than enough time to be refined, and I have no doubt that
the instruction mode I've encountered is the most successful at
turning the most people into pilots. I also know there are other
modes of learning, like 1) Be told and then do, 2) Be shown and then
do, 3) Do and correct or be corrected (aka Trial and Error), 4) Some
mixture of 1-3. I'm sure there are others, but it's been too long
since I took Psych 101.

So, is learning to fly always in the mode I've encountered? Will it
do any good to convince my instructor that I respond best to other
modes of learning?