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#1
January 7th 04, 06:55 PM
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Steve B wrote:
Doug... you are correct about management being able to make your life easy or not so easy. So it looks like I have a long road to hoe. Steve, If you are Steven Perry Barnes, the FAA says you also have an ASEL license. Hmmm...so there may be some other options. Just brainstorming, mind you, but perhaps you can recertify your motorglider as an airplane? Then it's just an experimental airplane...  Also, if you fly out of there once in a regular plane, and show how professionally you handle everything, when the controllers hear your voice again they'll know you aren't some yahoo gonna mess up their sequencing. From the Airnav picture, it looks like Kona has at least one high speed taxiway for you to get off. So that is very good. I suppose the next issue is how to taxi. If the glider can be taxied without a wingrunner, fine. If not maybe Century Aviation or Tropicbird or Hawaii flight academy, etc. can help you with a golf cart, a teenagers with a reflective vest, and a short rope to taxi you away. If it were me, I'd get a reflective vest for myself and the line boy, go out and scout the taxi obstructions with the fire department, arrange for a golf cart and rope, and pick a time with little traffic. I'd also check in with the local flight schools and tell them a plan and ask for input. They are likely to be the biggest complainers or best allies. I don't know about Kona, but at Palomar if I was a controller and someone wanted to fly a motorglider there I'd be livid. By recollection, the taxiway and runway are so close together too that I don't know if you could even safely taxi a glider without wake turbulence being a factor in some areas. And with the huge optempo (761 ops/day), taxi and landings and takeoffs are quite challenging to order. At 329 operations a day, Kona seems pretty packed too. Requesting a taxiway for takeoff which ISN'T the one everyone else uses seems a good idea, and using the high speed taxi off after landing should minimize the grief about cluttering the active. Taxiing the glider in a safe and efficient way is something else entirely... Maybe try the whole thing simulated in a power plane first? A little rehearsal dance for the golf cart and driver, and the controller, and you? Just some thoughts...hope they help with creative solutions... 
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#2
January 8th 04, 08:43 AM
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#3
January 8th 04, 02:37 PM
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Mark (and others) are 100% right on this one. You
do not need to ask permission. In fact, doing so sets a bad precedent. In dealing with FAA or airport management, remind them (tactfully) that the burden of proof is on them. In other words, if they can't show you regulations prohibiting an activity, then they must allow it. Understand that they probably don't know the regs as well as you do. Recognizing that the tower probably has never dealt with a motorglider, in the interest of safety, a brief letter describing your intentions, limitations and expectations might smooth things a bit. You are a registered aircraft wishing to use a public airport. Send a letter, show up and fly. If you catch any flak from airport management or FAA, ask them to put it in writing. Carry a small tape recorder with you. I've found these two practices quickly knock the wind out of most overzealous bureaucrats. Be polite, but if the tower continues to give you trouble, ask them to put a supervisor on the radio. As for wake turbulence, and taxiing around with the big boys, I doubt you are any more at risk than a small Cessna or Katana. Stay back 200' or so, and accept a wake turbulence delay on takeoff. If you are barred from entering the airport, contact your state aviation department and your congressman. You'd be amazed how quickly they can sway the system to your side. At 09:06 08 January 2004, Steve B wrote: Get friendly with the FSDO people and ask an inspector to observe your arrival and departure, and report back to superiors. FSDO folks are starting to help get the ball rolling... at this point they have been helpful with putting together a proposal to the 'powers that be' to gradualy move in the direction of being allowed to demonstrate the capabilities of the aircraft in regards to safe and effecient operation and traffic mix. SnipIt's just another (all too common) case of someone who doesn't know anything about gliders or their capability and doesn't want to learn. Just ban them altogether and the problem goes away. Don't have the T Shirt yet but I am 'being there' and 'doing that' sounds like you have been there done that. Thanks Steve (MKEENE221) wrote in message news:... Steve, This probably won't make much difference to your airport manager, but I once flew a motorglider, unannounced into and out of Dallas Love Field. And I know of an FAA inspector who flew his C-150 into DFW airport on a fairly regular basis. It was, and is ATC's job to separate traffic, no matter what the type or class. There's no need to call them and, in effect, ask permission. To ATC, there's little difference between your motorglider and a Kitfox or a J3 Cub, and I'm sure the manager doesn't make them jump through the same hoops. It's just another (all too common) case of someone who doesn't know anything about gliders or their capability and doesn't want to learn. Just ban them altogether and the problem goes away. That said, my recommendation to you is to first, play by the rules that everyone has to play by. In other words, fit in to the traffic flow just like there's nothing special. Some specific examples include the following. Know the ATC lingo and use it in a professional, courteous way. When taxiing, stay as close behind other traffic as safely possible. No need to be 1/4 mile behind a C172 because of propwash. Just like any other aircraft, even airliners, you can refuse takeoff clearance because of wake turbulence, but be reasonable. Be ready to go when you're number one, and request an immediate turnout to allow another aircraft to takeoff ASAP. Have a plan to expedite things before you land. After landing, clear the runway ASAP. All that considered, my advise would be to show up unannounced and fly. The fastest way to teach someone who doesn't want to learn, is to give them experience. Fly in, get a drink at the FBO, and fly out. Get friendly with the FSDO people and ask an inspector to observe your arrival and departure, and report back to superiors. With a, hopefully neutral witness, your case can be strengthened. Be friendly, not demanding. One more point, Federal law is in force here, not state law. Remember that the airport manager will use any tactic he can, to intimidate you into going away. As was said in a previous post, if they take federal funds, they can't refuse you. If they threaten you with something, ask them in a polite and humble way to show you where to find the reg that they're referring to. Mark Keene
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#4
January 8th 04, 04:14 PM
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Bob C wrote:
Carry a small tape recorder with you. I've found these two practices quickly knock the wind out of most overzealous bureaucrats. I like this! Be polite, but if the tower continues to give you trouble, ask them to put a supervisor on the radio. No! You get his telephone number and call him. A busy airport has no radio bandwidth for this kind of transaction - and is standard procedure. If you spend any time at a busy field you see some pilot really screw up and the next thing you'll hear is the tower issueing a telephone number for the pilot to call after landing. Tony V. http://home.comcast.net/~verhulst/SOARING
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#5
January 9th 04, 05:40 AM
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Steve,
DON'T ASK PERMISSION FOR SOMETHING THAT YOU ALREADY HAVE THE RIGHT TO DO! Part of this is JUST DOING IT and getting comfortable with the system. Have I made my point? If you go to these guys uncertain about your rights they are going to trample all over you (maybe not, but why risk it?). At the very least, they will start imposing restrictions on you that they dream up on the spot. I have flown my MG out of a number of tower controlled A/Ps without problems, including Class B. The simplist situation is to launch out of a uncontrolled A/P and land at the controlled A/P using standard radio procedure. On initial contact (outside of the control zone) use the term "glider", not "motorglider" (I assume you will not be under power). This automatically gives you priority over virtually all other A/C (unless there is another glider, of course). You can then, generously, allow other powered A/C to land as normal (assuming you have sufficient altitude-once I didn't and I ****ed off the controller, but that's another story-BTW, your safety preempts controller's atitudes). This eliminates the A/P access situation. I have also showed up with my glider and requested access to the A/P. Once they realize you have an N number and a radio they become acceptive and helpful. If you hesitate in ANY WAY they will become suspicious. Hey, this is their job. Flying in as a powered GA A/C is Ok, but unnecessary. If you don't know the A/P layout ask for a "progressive taxi". The controllers know this lingo and will bend over backwards to cooperate. Tom Seim DG-400 Richland, WA
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#7
January 9th 04, 10:26 PM
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Also has the highest consumption of Spam per capita in America but Honolulu
is rated by Men's Health magazine as the leanest city in America. "Steve B" wrote in message om... Tom... thanks for your suggestion. Could you kindly do me a big favor. I am putting together a presentation and need specific examples of motorgliders operating out of Towered Airports and also single runway airports. I am having a hard time finding specific examples to use in the proposal. I will need to present the proposal next Wed and so I am a bit behind the curve. FSDO is being very helpful but we need some ammunition to slay the dragon (airport manager) with. I wish to show other locations where self launch sailplans / motorgliders are able to any of the following: Safely and effeciently mix with other airtraffic and airlines Operate on Airports that have a Tower Operate at Airports that have a Single Runway A short story including which airport and type of motorglider mixing with the air traffic and taxi operations. This is Hawaii... and still a third world country where they shoot first and ask questions later. It is also one of the top two states for corruption, Louisiana being the other. That said... Tower guy and Airport Manager have used the safety and efficency route to stall the ability for me to fly there. It is just a hurdle that need to be cleared. Mahalo Steve Barnes (Tom Seim) wrote in message . com... Steve, DON'T ASK PERMISSION FOR SOMETHING THAT YOU ALREADY HAVE THE RIGHT TO DO! Part of this is JUST DOING IT and getting comfortable with the system. Have I made my point? If you go to these guys uncertain about your rights they are going to trample all over you (maybe not, but why risk it?). At the very least, they will start imposing restrictions on you that they dream up on the spot. I have flown my MG out of a number of tower controlled A/Ps without problems, including Class B. The simplist situation is to launch out of a uncontrolled A/P and land at the controlled A/P using standard radio procedure. On initial contact (outside of the control zone) use the term "glider", not "motorglider" (I assume you will not be under power). This automatically gives you priority over virtually all other A/C (unless there is another glider, of course). You can then, generously, allow other powered A/C to land as normal (assuming you have sufficient altitude-once I didn't and I ****ed off the controller, but that's another story-BTW, your safety preempts controller's atitudes). This eliminates the A/P access situation. I have also showed up with my glider and requested access to the A/P. Once they realize you have an N number and a radio they become acceptive and helpful. If you hesitate in ANY WAY they will become suspicious. Hey, this is their job. Flying in as a powered GA A/C is Ok, but unnecessary. If you don't know the A/P layout ask for a "progressive taxi". The controllers know this lingo and will bend over backwards to cooperate. Tom Seim DG-400 Richland, WA
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#8
January 10th 04, 05:18 AM
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Steve,
No doubt my best example is Hailey, ID, which serves Sun Valley. I have flown out of this A/P for nearly 20 years, starting with an ASW19 and later with my DG-400. Hailey is the 2nd busiest A/P in Idaho (after Boise). It has a single runway in a valley surrounded by mountains. There is A LOT of heavy metal flying into and out of Hailey because of Sun Valley (Warren Buffet, Arnold, etc.). When I first started flying there it was uncontrolled. About 1990 they added a control tower, which really helped (I once had to cut off a Cessna - Citation that is). Glider ops stopped there a few years ago after the commercial operator left, but there was never a safety issue. My main confusion was the difference between cleared to the hold line and holding on the runway (you REALLY want clearance for departure when you take a runway that might be seeing a G5 landing at 130 kt!). That part is really understanding the lingo of the controllers. Other tower controlled A/Ps I have operated out of include Pasco, WA, Pendleton, OR, Walla Walla, WA, Felts Field, WA, Geiger (Spokane), WA, Clarkston, ID and Missoula, MT. The key to integrating into regular A/P operations is to behave like a regular GA aircraft: no special requirements. Generally, this means the ability to taxi w/o assistance (some MGs can't do this, i.e. Ventus and Nimbus). If you can land and taxi off the runway w/o power then you don't present a problem to the controllers. This requires consistent energy management, i.e. hitting a touchdown point within a 100 feet. If absolutely necessary you can land w/power (POH permitting). I avoid this because this requires an in-air restart; what if it doesn't start? Then you have an emergency. Let me know if you have any other questions (tom_systek AT MSN dot COM). Tom (Steve B) wrote in message . com... Tom... thanks for your suggestion. Could you kindly do me a big favor. I am putting together a presentation and need specific examples of motorgliders operating out of Towered Airports and also single runway airports. I am having a hard time finding specific examples to use in the proposal. I will need to present the proposal next Wed and so I am a bit behind the curve. FSDO is being very helpful but we need some ammunition to slay the dragon (airport manager) with. I wish to show other locations where self launch sailplans / motorgliders are able to any of the following: Safely and effeciently mix with other airtraffic and airlines Operate on Airports that have a Tower Operate at Airports that have a Single Runway A short story including which airport and type of motorglider mixing with the air traffic and taxi operations. This is Hawaii... and still a third world country where they shoot first and ask questions later. It is also one of the top two states for corruption, Louisiana being the other. That said... Tower guy and Airport Manager have used the safety and efficency route to stall the ability for me to fly there. It is just a hurdle that need to be cleared. Mahalo Steve Barnes (Tom Seim) wrote in message . com... Steve, DON'T ASK PERMISSION FOR SOMETHING THAT YOU ALREADY HAVE THE RIGHT TO DO! Part of this is JUST DOING IT and getting comfortable with the system. Have I made my point? If you go to these guys uncertain about your rights they are going to trample all over you (maybe not, but why risk it?). At the very least, they will start imposing restrictions on you that they dream up on the spot. I have flown my MG out of a number of tower controlled A/Ps without problems, including Class B. The simplist situation is to launch out of a uncontrolled A/P and land at the controlled A/P using standard radio procedure. On initial contact (outside of the control zone) use the term "glider", not "motorglider" (I assume you will not be under power). This automatically gives you priority over virtually all other A/C (unless there is another glider, of course). You can then, generously, allow other powered A/C to land as normal (assuming you have sufficient altitude-once I didn't and I ****ed off the controller, but that's another story-BTW, your safety preempts controller's atitudes). This eliminates the A/P access situation. I have also showed up with my glider and requested access to the A/P. Once they realize you have an N number and a radio they become acceptive and helpful. If you hesitate in ANY WAY they will become suspicious. Hey, this is their job. Flying in as a powered GA A/C is Ok, but unnecessary. If you don't know the A/P layout ask for a "progressive taxi". The controllers know this lingo and will bend over backwards to cooperate. Tom Seim DG-400 Richland, WA
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#9
January 12th 04, 04:25 PM
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Steve:
As others have mentioned, you don't need permission to operate at a towered ariport provided you comply with all the appropriate FARs. However, you may need forgiveness if you disrupt the orderly flow of traffic at a busy airport! Scottsdale Arizona (KSDL) is reportedly the busiest single-runway airport in the country, with a considerable number of general aviation and business jet aircraft as well as helicopters. There are at least two motor gliders who are based at or use the airport. In fact, one joined in behind me in the pattern a couple of days ago (I was pounding holes in the asphalt with a Cezzna). We were both put on a circuitous route to land with 360s and extended downwinds to clear jet traffic. ATC treated us both the same (and extremely well, I might add). These aircraft are all motorgliders with the ability to taxi and manoever under power on landing (Katana, Grob 109, etc). I can see considerable difficulties in landing an unpowered glider at a busy airport just from the disruption in traffic and the need to get personnel on the runaway to clear the aircraft. At less busy airports this should not be a problem but obviously needs the cooperation of airport management and staff. Mike ASW 20 WA "Steve B" wrote in message om... Tom... thanks for your suggestion. Could you kindly do me a big favor. I am putting together a presentation and need specific examples of motorgliders operating out of Towered Airports and also single runway airports. I am having a hard time finding specific examples to use in the proposal. I will need to present the proposal next Wed and so I am a bit behind the curve. FSDO is being very helpful but we need some ammunition to slay the dragon (airport manager) with. I wish to show other locations where self launch sailplans / motorgliders are able to any of the following: Safely and effeciently mix with other airtraffic and airlines Operate on Airports that have a Tower Operate at Airports that have a Single Runway A short story including which airport and type of motorglider mixing with the air traffic and taxi operations. This is Hawaii... and still a third world country where they shoot first and ask questions later. It is also one of the top two states for corruption, Louisiana being the other. That said... Tower guy and Airport Manager have used the safety and efficency route to stall the ability for me to fly there. It is just a hurdle that need to be cleared. Mahalo Steve Barnes (Tom Seim) wrote in message . com... Steve, DON'T ASK PERMISSION FOR SOMETHING THAT YOU ALREADY HAVE THE RIGHT TO DO! Part of this is JUST DOING IT and getting comfortable with the system. Have I made my point? If you go to these guys uncertain about your rights they are going to trample all over you (maybe not, but why risk it?). At the very least, they will start imposing restrictions on you that they dream up on the spot. I have flown my MG out of a number of tower controlled A/Ps without problems, including Class B. The simplist situation is to launch out of a uncontrolled A/P and land at the controlled A/P using standard radio procedure. On initial contact (outside of the control zone) use the term "glider", not "motorglider" (I assume you will not be under power). This automatically gives you priority over virtually all other A/C (unless there is another glider, of course). You can then, generously, allow other powered A/C to land as normal (assuming you have sufficient altitude-once I didn't and I ****ed off the controller, but that's another story-BTW, your safety preempts controller's atitudes). This eliminates the A/P access situation. I have also showed up with my glider and requested access to the A/P. Once they realize you have an N number and a radio they become acceptive and helpful. If you hesitate in ANY WAY they will become suspicious. Hey, this is their job. Flying in as a powered GA A/C is Ok, but unnecessary. If you don't know the A/P layout ask for a "progressive taxi". The controllers know this lingo and will bend over backwards to cooperate. Tom Seim DG-400 Richland, WA
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#10
January 12th 04, 03:58 PM
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Michael Stringfellow wrote:
Scottsdale Arizona (KSDL) is reportedly the busiest single-runway airport in the country, with a considerable number of general aviation and business jet aircraft as well as helicopters. www.airnav.com Scottsdale: 506 operations/day McClellan-Palomar: 761 operations/day and Palomar is about half as long, so simultaneous landings with 3000 ft separation isn't as easy. Mark P.S. And I used to crawl both ways through sleet for 50 miles to get to kindergarten... :P Yeah, I know...I should stop whining...
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