90 Degree turn while slipping

Pete Zeugma wrote in message ...
At 02:42 05 February 2004, Isoar wrote:
I can't find anything in my books about how to make
a 90 degree turn
(e.g., downwind to base) while in a full slip,

Funny that, but then you should take a massive pinch
of salt when you read posts about making you turns
with the rudder. If you need to side slip at all during
your downwind, base and final, best do it on the straight
parts and use proper coordinated well banked turns
between. The one thing you should always avoid getting
into is turning with excessive amounts of rudder. Why?

It's a slip, NOT a skid. I'm not using excessive amounts of ruddre,
but just the opposite - essentially too little rudder to the extreme.

I most often do one of these when getting into a 2-33 after flying
glass with effective spoilers for a while.

When on base leg, I realize my normal pattern altitude is too high for
the little bit of sink the spoilers of the 2-33 provide. So as I turn
base to final, I apply rudder away from the direction of turn and lots
of aileron into the turn. Viola - a huge amount of altitude lost in
the turn and as I line up on final, the contols get 'normalized' again
and spoilers back to 2/3 or so for a normal flare and touchdown. I
usually get the angles figured out for the 2-33 after a couple flights
and the slip goes away, unless of course, I want to have some fun.
Like slipping down to the flare, flare aggressively, do a high AOA
touchdown (almost 2 point) and get stopped within 1-200' of touchdown


I've even done this in my ASW-20B with full flaps and spoilers. Set
up a landing while a gust front os blowing about 50 knots down the
runway. So the pattern is high with a planned turn to final at 5-600'
AGL pretty much over the numbers. About half way down base leg, the
wind quits. Now I'm waaaay high. So I pull out full flaps, full
spoilers, and do the slipping turn. I slipped it all the way down to
about 50', and touched down almost exaclty where I'd planned when the
wind was still blowing.

Tom
ASH-26E

"Todd Pattist" wrote in message
...
ISoar wrote:

I guess I should have made it clear that my need to know how to do
this was for the simulated case where the airbrakes are frozen shut.

I knew that - it's the reason most instructors in the U.S.
give for this exercise. Those outside the U.S. may not be
familiar with the Schweizer dive brakes that lie flat
against the wing surface, are hinged along one edge and tilt
away from the wing into the airflow when actuated. The
brakes sit in a small flat pocket on the wing surface that
can collect moisture, which then freezes while aloft. The
large plate-to-plate surface area between the brakes and the
cavity they sit in allows the frozen water to get a good
grip and prevent them from opening.
Todd Pattist - "WH" Ventus C
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)

On a metal glider, there is no reason that the spoilers can't be painted
black so the sun will heat them enough to unstick the ice. Anybody got a
story where a pilot was forced to land sans spoilers due to ice?

Bill Daniels

Not even talking about aerobatic exams in a Lo100 :-)

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"Andreas Maurer" a écrit dans le message de
...
On Thu, 5 Feb 2004 11:28:19 +0100, "Bert Willing"
wrote:

Funny thing this discussions. Slipping turns from base to final were part
of
my practical exam to get my license in Germany. Well that's now 20+ years
ago, and we did that on Ka7, Ka8 and things like that.
It is coordinated flight, by the way.

An approach without flaps by sideslip-only (including sideslip turn
from downwind to final) was also required during my instructor
examination. I did that in a G-103 Twin Astir, but I also saw the same
being done with an ASH-25.

Lots of fun, by the way. Nothing more thrilling than taking part in a
precision landing contest without even touching the flap lever...



Bye
Andreas

At 15:18 05 February 2004, Todd Pattist wrote:
If you are already in a full slip on base, you can
turn by simply increasing the bank angle while continuing
to
hold full opposite rudder.

and there you were a little while ago saying that you
can slip turn with wings level with the rudder alone
just like in a boat!

Todd Pattist - 'WH' Ventus C
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)

On Thu, 5 Feb 2004 18:13:39 +0100, "Bert Willing"
wrote:

Not even talking about aerobatic exams in a Lo100 :-)

Never mention glider aerobatics in my presence anymore...


Bye
Andreas

Like in straight flight, you can turn in a slip with aileron and rudder.
But in most planes you will need full or nearly full rudder to keep
the plane slipping, so only the aileron is left to control a turn.
Use it as you would use it in straight flight.
You only can do rather wide turns.
I prefer to to slip with the nose pointing to the outside of the turn
(i.e. left for a right turn).

There is one PROBLEM:
The indicated airspeed is close to zero, so you can only control the
airspeed by observing the angle between your plane and the horizon.
You will need some training to do this for any specific type of plane,
especially in mountain areas, where the horizon image changes during turn.
So it is necessary to try first at high altitude and it with an instuctor.
Be shure that you are trained to do straight slips, and to recover from a
stall.
For a real landing, you should use it only if a normal landing with flaps is
not possible.

By the way it is big fun!
Walter

Mixed feelings about slips... can be very useful, but most instances
of need can be attended to before needed, as others in the thread have
pointed out.

Frozen airbrakes are one of these. If you intend to fly at altitude,
or anytime the temperature is below freezing, a layer of vaseline
between the mating surfaces will tyically prevent them freezing
together.

ISoar wrote in message . ..
On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 10:16:17 -0500, Todd Pattist
wrote:

A full slipping turn
is perfectly safe and can be useful when your airbrakes are
frozen shut or when you just want a steeper approach than
normal.

I guess I should have made it clear that my need to know how to do
this was for the simulated case where the airbrakes are frozen shut.

Thanks for the tips.

ISoar wrote in message . ..
I can't find anything in my books about how to make a 90 degree turn
(e.g., downwind to base) while in a full slip, but maybe that's
because it's so obvious. (Given my limited # hours, just because
something seems obvious to me doesn't mean I'm not going to check it
out.) I figure I'll turn with roll input, but can't picture the side
effects from doing that. If I know the side effects I can have a
chance of being ahead of the plane during the maneuver.

Anyway, is there going to be any adverse yaw from turning in this
mode? Even if there is, I don't think I can do anything about it,
but enquiring minds want to know. The other question is if the
attitude going to change as a side effect of the roll input. This
will be in a 2-33.

Thanks

As a qualifier: I am not an aeronautical expert or a CFI-G but just
someone who has a few hundred hours and less than 12 months on my
private glider ticket.

It is amazing to me that a student with anything more than ten or so
flights hasn't been exposed to, and trained how to perform slips and
slipping turns. This is not your deficiency but that of your CFI-G.
You do not indicate your experience level, but the fact you are flying
a 2-33 gives an indication you are fairly new and or inexperienced.

Ask your CFI, if he/she doesn't know, get a new one! My pre-solo
CFI's, all four of them at three different club/fbo's, each told me I
would have to demonstrate this skill before I would be approved to
solo.

Where I fly and where I took my fight test the designee REQUIRED a
demonstration of fully controlled slipping turns in the pattern.
Certainly good pattern control should normally prevent you from being
so high on a turn to final that you would require a full slip with
full spoilers (It can be fun though :^) ). But when flying out in the
western deserts (US and other continents I would imagine) you can and
will experience extrememe lift in the pattern (or you could just blow
it!)which especially in a 2-33 can require slips and spoilers to
counter.

What about this situation: You are on your fifth solo flight and OOOH
NOOO! your yaw string disintigrates while under tow. No, this never
happens does it? (Happened to me once: Club 1-26 with brand new canopy
& no yaw string. Damn it wasn't on my pre-flight checklist! How could
I have missed it?) But if it does what better way to fly the pattern
but to execute moderate slipping turns in the pattern while maintaing
proper airspeed? Wouldn't that be safer than having a 30 flight
student attempt to fly perfectly coordinated without a yaw string? Err
on the safe side?

Also, what about outlandings? This may not be a consideration for a
pre-solo student but isn't it something he/she should be building
their skills for now?
Short field, moderate to high wind, high obstruction on the downwind
end of the field. I have been taught that having skill at a full
spoiler slip may save your aircraft (and your life) in this situation.

O.K. guys & gals tell me where I am wrong here. I have also been
taught that when we stop learning whe should prepare to die, if we
already haven't.

P.S. Always remember: Proper pitch attitude control is imperative when
executing this maneuver as the IAS will almost certainly not be
correct.

ISoar

What about this situation: You are on your fifth solo flight and OOOH
NOOO! your yaw string disintigrates while under tow. No, this never
happens does it? (Happened to me once: Club 1-26 with brand new canopy
& no yaw string. Damn it wasn't on my pre-flight checklist! How could
I have missed it?) But if it does what better way to fly the pattern

Hmmm...yet another instrument with no required backup. Yaw string
outside, maybe a ball inside?

P.S. Always remember: Proper pitch attitude control is imperative when
executing this maneuver as the IAS will almost certainly not be
correct.

Yet another instrument with no backup. (most) Airplanes have a
stall horn as the ASI backup. I'm still puzzled why gliders
don't have stall warning devices...

"JohnD" wrote in message
om...
ISoar wrote in message
. ..
...
What about this situation: You are on your fifth solo flight and OOOH
NOOO! your yaw string disintigrates while under tow. No, this never
happens does it? (Happened to me once: Club 1-26 with brand new canopy
& no yaw string. Damn it wasn't on my pre-flight checklist! How could
I have missed it?) But if it does what better way to fly the pattern
but to execute moderate slipping turns in the pattern while maintaing
proper airspeed? Wouldn't that be safer than having a 30 flight
student attempt to fly perfectly coordinated without a yaw string? Err
on the safe side?
...
P.S. Always remember: Proper pitch attitude control is imperative when
executing this maneuver as the IAS will almost certainly not be
correct.

I should tell my early-solo students that a missing or stuck yaw string
is sufficient reason for them to make a non-standard pattern, make
deliberately uncoordinated and little-practiced turns near the ground, and
give up the advantage of a correctly functioning IAS? I don't think so!

In that situation, I might want my student to hold an extra 5 knots in
the pattern, and even if their asscheeks are not yet sufficiently calibrated
to produce a perfect turn, they should be able to mechanically coordinate
the controls enough to make a spin unlikely while simultaneously remaining
far enough above stall speed to make a spin impossible.

That said, a slip/skid indicator costs a whole $45.00 at Wings& Wheels
and there is no reason for any trainer to be without one.

Vaughn