When to speak up....?

John Seaborn wrote:

This issue gets very sticky in club situations.

Several years ago we had an elderly club member who did not fly that
often and demonstrated several very sketchy approaches and landings in
club gliders. As President of the club at the time I felt that some
action needed to be taken so set up several check rides with club
instructors and flew with the member myself. He had long experience
as a pilot and when very current did an acceptable job as PIC.
Unfortunately his skills were very perishable, meaning that with just
a short layoff of a few weeks we were back to square one and in the
potential hazard zone. After essentially failing the clubs flight
test, we considered several remedies, talked them over with the pilot
and came to an understanding that he was not to fly solo or be PIC for
the take off or landing but could continue to fly the club gliders
with other club members under these restrictions. There are allsorts
of issues with this. What is the responsibility of club management to
take pro-active action to head off a potential accident? Who are we to
decide the flying future of fellow club members that may not be
perfect pilots (none of us are) but have not broken anything? It
smacks of big brother. Are the club bylaws and members within their
authority to take this pro-active action? What I was looking for was a
way to keep this pilot of long experience actively engaged in the club
and flying while protecting the interests of the other club members
and to a degree his own. So many of these older members have so much
to contribute and are offten the biggest contributors in a club. It
would be a good thing if clubs could develop a pathway for these
members that was known, acceptable, did not impinge on the ego but
kept them actively flying and contributing to the club. My position
was that he in essence failed the clubs flight test and was given a
red light be the clubs instructors and it did not have a thing to do
with his age which is what it came down to. The eventual outcome in
this case was that while nothing was broken, at least by this member,
he eventually walked accusing age discrimination and equating me to an
infamous iron curtain leader. The joys of being a club President.

John Seaborn USA


"Gary Boggs" wrote in message ...

Our tow pilot crashed our Wilga yesterday at dusk. He was coming in with
the flaps down and the power pulled back. At about 200ft he decided his
descent rate was too great and pulled the flaps up. He said he was too slow
but never added power and the high rate of descent continued right into the
ground. The leading link suspension failed but the struts held up so the
plane skidded down the runway on the ends of the struts. He then added full
power, beating the brand new prop into very small pieces.

The good things: No one was hurt at all, the robust suspension absorbed the
impact very well. If it had been in dirt, it would have been a completely
different story, I'm sure it would have flipped.....

The undercarriage is shot, the prop and engine are toast, and there are some
questions about the wing structure. I think it's probably a total loss.
The owners, being gambling men, had decided to self insure. Fortunately
this loss is no big deal for them. On the bright side, we now have a good
supply of Wilga parts!

I had been feeling a little concerned about my friends flying for a while
now but he was very and angry unreceptive of any input about his flying. He
taught me how to fly 27 years ago and I have always held him in very high
regard. I let these things discourage me from acting on my concerns. He's
not that old, mid 60's, but his skills were starting to suffer. I feel
really bad now that I let my respect for him and his attitude get in the way
of talking to him about my concerns.

How many more of you out there have concerns about a fellow pilot and aren't
saying anything to them because it's not easy?

Recently two 70+ pilots. Both considered to be less than stellar pilots (before
age took the edge off their abilities) were involved in a mid-air.
Regrettably one was killed. The other pilot flew into his tail while thermal
ling, but was able to land safely. The sad part is that this pilot had been
involved in an accident five years previously, and on assessment it was
concluded that his abilities had deteriorated to the point where he was
considered unsafe to fly solo.

The question is, Is it better that he should be burdened with responsibility for
someone's death because no-body was brave enough to tell him to fly with a
safety pilot.(and enforce compliance). On balance I'm not sure they did him any
favours.

There are any number of youngsters who would jump at the chance of cut price
flying and mentor ship. If the pilot in question is unable to accept the help,
then it is better that he/she should leave. Flying safely is about assessment of
risk, and appropriate action, if objectivity is lost then the pilot should no
longer be flying. Sad fact, but better for them, their family and the club than
a crash (it's only an accident if it was unforeseen).

Result is that all pilots over the age of 70 now have to pass 6 monthly check
rides with their CFI. Peer review is/should be a fact of life, the club
leadership has a responsibility to the members and public, and should be
supported in any bona fide action to improve safety. The trick is in knowing
when to draw the line. Better not to fail in your duty of oversight, than to
offend someone.

I sincerely hope to have friends who will tell me when I get there. It would be
better if I realised it myself , and took the appropriate action...

Good point Kirk! And of by the way that pass you made
last weekend could prove to be really unsafe. Good
thing it wasn't my wife!')


At 14:30 08 March 2004, Kirk Stant wrote:
(JJ Sinclair) wrote in message news:...

TELL THEM,
JJ Sinclair

Not only that, but TELL ME! Let your friends (or enemies,
depending
on how you get along with the rest of the gang at the
airport) know
that you do not mind 'constructive criticism' when
you do some
boneheaded act in public.

Low passes come to mind. If most of your buds say
'Oooh Aaah, nice
pass!' but one crotchety old twirlybird geezer tells
you that you
scared his dog, then maybe your aerial evolution was
not quite as well
executed as you planned.

Of course, you then have to be able to smile (try to
hide the clenched
teeth)and thank someone for potentially saving your
life...

Kirk

On Mon, 08 Mar 2004 22:05:22 +0200, Bruce Greeff
wrote:

John Seaborn wrote:

This issue gets very sticky in club situations.

Several years ago we had an elderly club member who did not fly that
often and demonstrated several very sketchy approaches and landings in
club gliders. As President of the club at the time I felt that some
action needed to be taken so set up several check rides with club
instructors and flew with the member myself. He had long experience
as a pilot and when very current did an acceptable job as PIC.
Unfortunately his skills were very perishable, meaning that with just
a short layoff of a few weeks we were back to square one and in the
potential hazard zone. After essentially failing the clubs flight
test, we considered several remedies, talked them over with the pilot
and came to an understanding that he was not to fly solo or be PIC for
the take off or landing but could continue to fly the club gliders
with other club members under these restrictions. There are allsorts
of issues with this. What is the responsibility of club management to
take pro-active action to head off a potential accident? Who are we to
decide the flying future of fellow club members that may not be
perfect pilots (none of us are) but have not broken anything? It
smacks of big brother. Are the club bylaws and members within their
authority to take this pro-active action? What I was looking for was a
way to keep this pilot of long experience actively engaged in the club
and flying while protecting the interests of the other club members
and to a degree his own. So many of these older members have so much
to contribute and are offten the biggest contributors in a club. It
would be a good thing if clubs could develop a pathway for these
members that was known, acceptable, did not impinge on the ego but
kept them actively flying and contributing to the club. My position
was that he in essence failed the clubs flight test and was given a
red light be the clubs instructors and it did not have a thing to do
with his age which is what it came down to. The eventual outcome in
this case was that while nothing was broken, at least by this member,
he eventually walked accusing age discrimination and equating me to an
infamous iron curtain leader. The joys of being a club President.

John Seaborn USA


"Gary Boggs" wrote in message ...

Our tow pilot crashed our Wilga yesterday at dusk. He was coming in with
the flaps down and the power pulled back. At about 200ft he decided his
descent rate was too great and pulled the flaps up. He said he was too slow
but never added power and the high rate of descent continued right into the
ground. The leading link suspension failed but the struts held up so the
plane skidded down the runway on the ends of the struts. He then added full
power, beating the brand new prop into very small pieces.

The good things: No one was hurt at all, the robust suspension absorbed the
impact very well. If it had been in dirt, it would have been a completely
different story, I'm sure it would have flipped.....

The undercarriage is shot, the prop and engine are toast, and there are some
questions about the wing structure. I think it's probably a total loss.
The owners, being gambling men, had decided to self insure. Fortunately
this loss is no big deal for them. On the bright side, we now have a good
supply of Wilga parts!

I had been feeling a little concerned about my friends flying for a while
now but he was very and angry unreceptive of any input about his flying. He
taught me how to fly 27 years ago and I have always held him in very high
regard. I let these things discourage me from acting on my concerns. He's
not that old, mid 60's, but his skills were starting to suffer. I feel
really bad now that I let my respect for him and his attitude get in the way
of talking to him about my concerns.

How many more of you out there have concerns about a fellow pilot and aren't
saying anything to them because it's not easy?

Recently two 70+ pilots. Both considered to be less than stellar pilots (before
age took the edge off their abilities) were involved in a mid-air.
Regrettably one was killed. The other pilot flew into his tail while thermal
ling, but was able to land safely. The sad part is that this pilot had been
involved in an accident five years previously, and on assessment it was
concluded that his abilities had deteriorated to the point where he was
considered unsafe to fly solo.

The question is, Is it better that he should be burdened with responsibility for
someone's death because no-body was brave enough to tell him to fly with a
safety pilot.(and enforce compliance). On balance I'm not sure they did him any
favours.

There are any number of youngsters who would jump at the chance of cut price
flying and mentor ship. If the pilot in question is unable to accept the help,
then it is better that he/she should leave. Flying safely is about assessment of
risk, and appropriate action, if objectivity is lost then the pilot should no
longer be flying. Sad fact, but better for them, their family and the club than
a crash (it's only an accident if it was unforeseen).

Result is that all pilots over the age of 70 now have to pass 6 monthly check
rides with their CFI. Peer review is/should be a fact of life, the club
leadership has a responsibility to the members and public, and should be
supported in any bona fide action to improve safety. The trick is in knowing
when to draw the line. Better not to fail in your duty of oversight, than to
offend someone.

I sincerely hope to have friends who will tell me when I get there. It would be
better if I realised it myself , and took the appropriate action...

Couldn't agree more.

I think the best course is to make this a club rule and to enforce it
without exceptions: at least that way nobody can be accused of
unfairness.

--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

I recently didn't mention something to a fellow senior pilot and the
next day he damaged an aircraft. He's a friend, so
I really should've. Shame on me.

I usually give advice by saying, "I'd do it this way" rather than
condemning something. Seems to still get the point across.

As far as rules beyond the FAA regs, this is kinda sticky.
Sure sure, a club could require it's members have medicals,
or reduce the currency times, but I'd be careful
about specifics. Requiring spin training, having some
checklist different than the book, requiring full gas tanks,
even prohibiting ballast could be talked up by some clever
lawyer as contributing to an accident.

As far as ol' timers go, what about a medical and a flight review?
If the guy can pass both of those, shouldn't that be enough?
Are the CFIs signing off that gullable?

I gotta say that just because gliders don't require a medical
doesn't mean it isn't required before flight. If somebody wanted
to fly a glider I owned, and I had any smidge of doubt,
I'd demand a medical first. And if anyone ever demanded that of me,
then fine. And I'll tell you there's a TON of medically disqualifying
medication for flight, regardless of whether one has a medical or not.
A bunch is over the counter! I think AOPA has the list...

I'd be surprised if there weren't a bunch of ol' timers flying
with full knowledge they are medically groundable. That's
breakin' the regs as much as anything else...

The flip side of this, and one that has to get some respect, is
that if the professional flight surgeon and professional CFI
both say he's ok, that needs some weight.

In article ,
JJ Sinclair wrote:
Gary & All,
Speak up, when you see something you think is unsafe. I don't care if the pilot
listens or not, at least you just gave him one data point. When he gets several
data points, it may sink in.

I watched a fairly low time pilot enter the pattern at 200 feet and then
proceed to fly downwind and base, just like he was at normal altitude. I swore
he was going to dig in his wing tip as he turned final. He made it and nobody
said anything to him

The next weekend he was killed after arriving at the airport, very low and
then proceeding as though everything was completely normal.

TELL THEM,
JJ Sinclair


--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

Several things came to mind when reading this thread.

(1) It seems to me that, in my own case for sure, many of us are capable of
being our own worst critics and simultaneously in denial that our skills
could, at least, use some "polishing up".

(2) As to the question of requiring periodic check rides for members that fly
club gliders, it seems to me that it truly is discriminatory to require that
only of pilots beyond some certain age. I do agree that there must be some way
to set and then monitor the standards of performance required to be PIC in a
club glider, but why not administer it to all pilots? I've been flying a while
and have seen some of the young ones get over confident, overly adventurous and
also develop bad habits. So..why not do a check on everybody? If the club
culture is developed carefully, this can be viewed in a positve way and as a
learning opportunity.

(3) I have had the pleasure of flying with many different people in gliders,
biz jets and helos and I do believe that this has made me a better pilot. The
reason for that is I get to see other peoples' ideas and techniques at work and
then cull through those ideas and techinques before either adopting each as
better than what I had been doing or discarding them as not desireable. If a
club can sort of "indoctrinate" its members to do this sort of "cross
pollination" I think that it helps to maintain standards, keep communications
open, and to make more people aware of any deterioration in a particular
pilots' skills.

My $.02 worth, for what its worth...

Gary,

Everyone agrees, speak up. But best to do it with or through someone
the pilot in question respects. Then, expect anger, denial, and if he
is a gentleman, an apology for the reaction at some point in the
future. That's just the way people work.

(Chris OCallaghan) wrote in message . com...
Gary,

Everyone agrees, speak up. But best to do it with or through someone
the pilot in question respects. Then, expect anger, denial, and if he
is a gentleman, an apology for the reaction at some point in the
future. That's just the way people work.

Indeed, speak up. It may not make any difference, but you have a
responsibility to try. This applies to unsafe practices by an
otherwise competent pilot as well as to age- or health-related
deterioration of skills. Even with single-seat gliders there's a
chance a pilot's mistake could hurt others.

For all the criticism that the contest group receives, I've found this
environment to be one where a pilot who has done something
questionable is very likely to be "counseled" by not one but several
other competition pilots soon after the incident. It's also been my
experience that pilots who are thus spoken to are generally receptive
to the critique.

I'm not sure whether this is because the counselers at a contest tend
to be older, higher time, and respected or whether pilots who
regularly test themselves in this arena are introspective and
receptive to suggestions for improvement. Maybe they, like many of us,
are just subject to peer pressure, especially when those peers may be
U.S. national champions.

As for counseling someone whose skills have
deteriorated--irrevocably--to the point of being unsafe for
him/herself and/or others, the one or two contest pilot situations of
which I'm aware have been painful affairs for all involved. But that's
no reason not to take action.

As Chris suggested, the best way is probably to do it through someone
the pilot in question trusts and privately at a time and place where
the pilot is more likely to be receptive.

Chip Bearden

In many of posts on this subject I see a stated or implied reason for
the pilot's declining performance as being age related. While I would
agree that age is a significant factor impacting one's mental
sharpness, I think we all need to be aware of other factors that may
lead to impairment. Just because your birthday cake doesn't have 60 or
more candles doesn't mean you or your soaring friend may not have a
problem. Both stress and illness can play a significant role in
reducing one's mental concentration. You may not connect bad times at
work, a problem marriage, financial woes or a family illness as
negatively impacting your soaring skills but it can and does. There is
no shame (in my book) for skipping the PIC for a while and going dual
during such times. If you see symptoms of stress or health related
problems in the pilots you fly with, I believe it's an obligation for
you to voice your concerns.