Commercial - StrePla Competitive Upgrade

Hi,

I'm not convinced that sending their code to me to prove they purchase
SeeYou is "returning it". I'm not asking them to stop using it.

Paul Remde

"Kevin Christner" wrote in message
...
I'm not sure I follow you note below in regard to reselling or returning
without permission of the authors. I'm not going to use their SeeYou
license key or pass it on to anyone else. Therefore they are not
reselling
or returning it. I am an ethical person that can be trusted. I just
want
to verify that they are actually a SeeYou user and not simply saying
they
are a SeeYou user.

Let me preface what I have to say by stating that for several years I
worked for Tim Mara at Wings and Wheels, and now do all the US Support
for LX Navigation and flyWithCE products. But, the following
statement clearly prohibits what you are doing.

"After you have received the registration key for the
software it is not possible to return or resell it without permission
of the
authors of this software."

Users sending you their code are clearly "returning" it. In addition,
they are "selling" it because you have given them a discount, which
amounts a monetary value. You are buying their code.

To be honest, when I first read your post, I thought it was a great
business strategy. I have no personal problems with what you are
doing. But the SeeYou EULA clearly states that this is not correct.

Also, I think that there are alot of people who don't care a message
on RAS everytime you add a new mount, cable, update your website, ect.
I know that Tim updates his website 3-4 times EVERYDAY, with new
products, want-ads, ect. We probably get 25-50 new products every
year, but we don't put a message on RAS for everyone. Latley, your
posts have increased to 2-3 per week, for every little thing that you
get. Clearly, the business you recieve from these posts justify the
negative feedback you recieve from some. But, at the same time,
Standard Oil got alot of business too, but that didn't make their
tactics right.

Kevin Christner

in a string. Where is the line drawn? The answer is really
simple - commercial posts aren't allowed here and normally
aren't allowed under the AUP provisions of most ISP's.

Oh for Christ's sake lighten up! The soaring community is so small and the
products and advertisements so few, I can't believe you are actually
suggesting it's a problem. In fact of the ads for soaring products here are
much less offensive than some of that Lenie the Lurker crap that goes on
here. And at least the ads are clearly marked for what they are.

I feel that I have a right to rant a little bit because I have been
following and posting on rec.aviation.soaring way back when it was just
rec.aviation in the early 90's. Anybody remember who Geoff Peck is???...
How quickly we forget. So unless you can trace your roots back to
rec.aviation and Brother Peck, please refrain from coming here with both
guns blasting telling what is and isn't allowed.

Guy Byars

I see by reading this post that the flying conditions
must not be as great as we, in the Northern Hemisphere,
had hoped for our Spring.

I enjoy the posts by Paul Remde and others who might
be 'advertising' their products. There are two other
places I might see their ads: 'SOARING' magazine and
Al MacDonald's website, www.gliderforum.com. But it
doesn't bother me one bit that there might be 'advertising'
here. As long as it serves the soaring community,
I think it is great here.

Reading the charter for R.A.S., I don't see that it
explicitly prohibits ads. The charter does, politely,
ask those to 'refrain' from 'commercial pluggery' (I
wonder how spell check will like that?) but it can
be a gray line between 'commercial' and 'public service.'
I always tend to think of the posts from Paul Remde,
Tim Mara, Tom Knauff, and the handful of other product
suppliers to be a service to me and other pilots and
I hope they continue.

If there were a vote from R.A.S. readers for or against
advertising by the gliding products and service providers,
I would vote YES.

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA


At 14:48 20 May 2004, Todd Pattist wrote:
'Paul Remde' wrote:

I'm sorry about this being the 3rd commercial post
I've done in the last day
or so. I tend to do them in spurts... I promise to
slow down after this
one.

At the risk of being flamed again, the Charter of
rec.aviation.soaring does not allow *any* commercial
messages in this forum. You should be ashamed of yourself,
as you know the rules. Other soaring suppliers abide
by
them. Put a link to your web site in your sig.

Googles Glossary:
http://www.google.com/googlegroups/glossary.html
netiquette [from 'network etiquette'] n The conventions
of
politeness recognized in discussion forums, such as
avoidance of cross-posting to inappropriate forums
and
refraining from commercial pluggery outside the business
forums.


http://www.faqs.org/faqs/finding-groups/general/
2) Commercial Advertisements
The general rule of thumb is that you need to take
the time
to learn where your advertisement is appropriate before
you
post it. If you are not sure where your advertisement
is
appropriate, don't post it. Another good rule of thumb
is
that unless the group's charter or FAQ specifically
mentions
that some limited types of advertising are welcome,
you
should assume that no commercial postings are allowed.

You will be asked to enter your SeeYou registration
key when you place the order.

People really should not give these out. You should
ask for
other proof (canceled check, etc.)

I don't mean to jump on you Paul, but this is not a
commercial forum and it's against the
Todd Pattist - 'WH' Ventus C
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)

Hi,

I now think I have a better understanding of where the SeeYou team is coming
from on this issue. They sent me a note that explained their position more
clearly. They feel that if I ask their customers to send me their
registration key I am asking their them to break the contract between SeeYou
and the customer that prohibits sending the key to anyone. The wording in
their agreement isn't clear to me, but I respect their position. One
interesting point they made is that the registration key does not
necessarily prove that the person purchased it. I must regretfully agree -
it's too bad some soaring pilots don't respect their license agreements and
don't pay for keys for themselves. Especially in such a small industry.
Software developers deserve to get paid for their efforts for us glider
pilots.

Therefore I have changed the wording on my web site such that I no longer
ask SeeYou customers to send me their registration key to get the
competitive upgrade to StrePla. I will never ask anyone to provide a key to
me and will delete it if I receive one. If potential StrePla-Bundle-Upgrade
customers want to receive a "Competitive Upgrade" discount they must provide
some form of proof of purchase of SeeYou. That could be in the form of a
receipt or something similar I guess.

I have sent a note to them inquiring as to whether that solution is
acceptable but have not yet heard back from them.

I certainly respect their efforts to create tools for the soaring community.

I'm sincerely interested to know if anyone thinks my new approach is
unacceptable. I sincerely strive to be a very ethical person.

Thank you,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.

"Paul Remde" wrote in message
news:fS9rc.30067$gr.3034945@attbi_s52...
Hi,

I'm not convinced that sending their code to me to prove they purchase
SeeYou is "returning it". I'm not asking them to stop using it.

Paul Remde

"Kevin Christner" wrote in message
...
I'm not sure I follow you note below in regard to reselling or
returning
without permission of the authors. I'm not going to use their SeeYou
license key or pass it on to anyone else. Therefore they are not
reselling
or returning it. I am an ethical person that can be trusted. I just
want
to verify that they are actually a SeeYou user and not simply saying
they
are a SeeYou user.

Let me preface what I have to say by stating that for several years I
worked for Tim Mara at Wings and Wheels, and now do all the US Support
for LX Navigation and flyWithCE products. But, the following
statement clearly prohibits what you are doing.

"After you have received the registration key for the
software it is not possible to return or resell it without permission
of the
authors of this software."

Users sending you their code are clearly "returning" it. In addition,
they are "selling" it because you have given them a discount, which
amounts a monetary value. You are buying their code.

To be honest, when I first read your post, I thought it was a great
business strategy. I have no personal problems with what you are
doing. But the SeeYou EULA clearly states that this is not correct.

Also, I think that there are alot of people who don't care a message
on RAS everytime you add a new mount, cable, update your website, ect.
I know that Tim updates his website 3-4 times EVERYDAY, with new
products, want-ads, ect. We probably get 25-50 new products every
year, but we don't put a message on RAS for everyone. Latley, your
posts have increased to 2-3 per week, for every little thing that you
get. Clearly, the business you recieve from these posts justify the
negative feedback you recieve from some. But, at the same time,
Standard Oil got alot of business too, but that didn't make their
tactics right.

Kevin Christner

I also try to refrain from posting commercial messages on the RAS. I
just counted the number of advertisers in Soaring Magazine. 39 or so.
Can you imagine the damage to the RAS if all were posting commercial
messages.

Richard Pfiffner
Craggyaero
www.craggyaero.com



"Paul Remde" wrote in message news:7w3rc.5229$Vv.389318@attbi_s51...
Hi Todd,

I understand your position on this recurring theme. However, every time we
go through this friendly argument I receive many, many more supportive
comments than negative ones. My intension is to continue to send commercial
posts. I will try to keep them less often (on average) than 1 every week or
2. As has been my practice of late I will highlight the posts with the term
"Commercial" in the header so that people can ignore them if they choose.
They are easy to ignore if you choose.

My impression is that most people on this newsgroup like to learn about new
and updated products here.

I am not trying to get rich, but rather to support the soaring community.

Thank you,

Paul Remde

"Todd Pattist" wrote in message
...
"Paul Remde" wrote:

I'm sorry about this being the 3rd commercial post I've done in the last
day
or so. I tend to do them in spurts... I promise to slow down after this
one.

At the risk of being flamed again, the Charter of
rec.aviation.soaring does not allow *any* commercial
messages in this forum. You should be ashamed of yourself,
as you know the rules. Other soaring suppliers abide by
them. Put a link to your web site in your sig.

Googles Glossary:
http://www.google.com/googlegroups/glossary.html
netiquette [from "network etiquette"] n The conventions of
politeness recognized in discussion forums, such as
avoidance of cross-posting to inappropriate forums and
refraining from commercial pluggery outside the business
forums.


http://www.faqs.org/faqs/finding-groups/general/
2) Commercial Advertisements
The general rule of thumb is that you need to take the time
to learn where your advertisement is appropriate before you
post it. If you are not sure where your advertisement is
appropriate, don't post it. Another good rule of thumb is
that unless the group's charter or FAQ specifically mentions
that some limited types of advertising are welcome, you
should assume that no commercial postings are allowed.

You will be asked to enter your SeeYou registration
key when you place the order.

People really should not give these out. You should ask for
other proof (canceled check, etc.)

I don't mean to jump on you Paul, but this is not a
commercial forum and it's against the
Todd Pattist - "WH" Ventus C
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)

Hi Richard,

Good point.

Paul Remde

"RHP" wrote in message
om...
I also try to refrain from posting commercial messages on the RAS. I
just counted the number of advertisers in Soaring Magazine. 39 or so.
Can you imagine the damage to the RAS if all were posting commercial
messages.

Richard Pfiffner
Craggyaero
www.craggyaero.com



"Paul Remde" wrote in message
news:7w3rc.5229$Vv.389318@attbi_s51...
Hi Todd,

I understand your position on this recurring theme. However, every
time we
go through this friendly argument I receive many, many more supportive
comments than negative ones. My intension is to continue to send
commercial
posts. I will try to keep them less often (on average) than 1 every
week or
2. As has been my practice of late I will highlight the posts with the
term
"Commercial" in the header so that people can ignore them if they
choose.
They are easy to ignore if you choose.

My impression is that most people on this newsgroup like to learn about
new
and updated products here.

I am not trying to get rich, but rather to support the soaring
community.

Thank you,

Paul Remde

"Todd Pattist" wrote in message
...
"Paul Remde" wrote:

I'm sorry about this being the 3rd commercial post I've done in the
last
day
or so. I tend to do them in spurts... I promise to slow down after
this
one.

At the risk of being flamed again, the Charter of
rec.aviation.soaring does not allow *any* commercial
messages in this forum. You should be ashamed of yourself,
as you know the rules. Other soaring suppliers abide by
them. Put a link to your web site in your sig.

Googles Glossary:
http://www.google.com/googlegroups/glossary.html
netiquette [from "network etiquette"] n The conventions of
politeness recognized in discussion forums, such as
avoidance of cross-posting to inappropriate forums and
refraining from commercial pluggery outside the business
forums.


http://www.faqs.org/faqs/finding-groups/general/
2) Commercial Advertisements
The general rule of thumb is that you need to take the time
to learn where your advertisement is appropriate before you
post it. If you are not sure where your advertisement is
appropriate, don't post it. Another good rule of thumb is
that unless the group's charter or FAQ specifically mentions
that some limited types of advertising are welcome, you
should assume that no commercial postings are allowed.

You will be asked to enter your SeeYou registration
key when you place the order.

People really should not give these out. You should ask for
other proof (canceled check, etc.)

I don't mean to jump on you Paul, but this is not a
commercial forum and it's against the
Todd Pattist - "WH" Ventus C
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)

Surely the answer to the question is easy, Andy who
runs this website requires funding to keep it running.
We all like it so why not support him with proper
adverts and help offset some of his expenses.

Individual old messages on RAS after a few days, but
the ad stay there for all to read.

DM

At 14:30 21 May 2004, Paul Remde wrote:
Hi Richard,

Good point.

Paul Remde

'RHP' wrote in message
. com...
I also try to refrain from posting commercial messages
on the RAS. I
just counted the number of advertisers in Soaring
Magazine. 39 or so.
Can you imagine the damage to the RAS if all were
posting commercial
messages.

Richard Pfiffner
Craggyaero
www.craggyaero.com



'Paul Remde' wrote in message
news:...
Hi Todd,

I understand your position on this recurring theme.
However, every
time we
go through this friendly argument I receive many,
many more supportive
comments than negative ones. My intension is to
continue to send
commercial
posts. I will try to keep them less often (on average)
than 1 every
week or
2. As has been my practice of late I will highlight
the posts with the
term
'Commercial' in the header so that people can ignore
them if they
choose.
They are easy to ignore if you choose.

My impression is that most people on this newsgroup
like to learn about
new
and updated products here.

I am not trying to get rich, but rather to support
the soaring
community.

Thank you,

Paul Remde

'Todd Pattist' wrote in message
...
'Paul Remde' wrote:

I'm sorry about this being the 3rd commercial post
I've done in the
last
day
or so. I tend to do them in spurts... I promise
to slow down after
this
one.

At the risk of being flamed again, the Charter of
rec.aviation.soaring does not allow *any* commercial
messages in this forum. You should be ashamed of
yourself,
as you know the rules. Other soaring suppliers abide
by
them. Put a link to your web site in your sig.

Googles Glossary:
http://www.google.com/googlegroups/glossary.html
netiquette [from 'network etiquette'] n The conventions
of
politeness recognized in discussion forums, such
as
avoidance of cross-posting to inappropriate forums
and
refraining from commercial pluggery outside the
business
forums.


http://www.faqs.org/faqs/finding-groups/general/
2) Commercial Advertisements
The general rule of thumb is that you need to take
the time
to learn where your advertisement is appropriate
before you
post it. If you are not sure where your advertisement
is
appropriate, don't post it. Another good rule of
thumb is
that unless the group's charter or FAQ specifically
mentions
that some limited types of advertising are welcome,
you
should assume that no commercial postings are allowed.

You will be asked to enter your SeeYou registration
key when you place the order.

People really should not give these out. You should
ask for
other proof (canceled check, etc.)

I don't mean to jump on you Paul, but this is not
a
commercial forum and it's against the
Todd Pattist - 'WH' Ventus C
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)

Hi Dave,

I'm guessing that you are accessing rec.aviation.soaring through someone's
web site. Most people access r.a.s. directly using newsreader programs.
So, I'm sorry, but I don't think your suggestion will work for many of us.

Good Soaring,

Paul Remde

"Dave Martin" wrote in message
...
Surely the answer to the question is easy, Andy who
runs this website requires funding to keep it running.
We all like it so why not support him with proper
adverts and help offset some of his expenses.

Individual old messages on RAS after a few days, but
the ad stay there for all to read.

DM

At 14:30 21 May 2004, Paul Remde wrote:
Hi Richard,

Good point.

Paul Remde

'RHP' wrote in message
. com...
I also try to refrain from posting commercial messages
on the RAS. I
just counted the number of advertisers in Soaring
Magazine. 39 or so.
Can you imagine the damage to the RAS if all were
posting commercial
messages.

Richard Pfiffner
Craggyaero
www.craggyaero.com



'Paul Remde' wrote in message
news:...
Hi Todd,

I understand your position on this recurring theme.
However, every
time we
go through this friendly argument I receive many,
many more supportive
comments than negative ones. My intension is to
continue to send
commercial
posts. I will try to keep them less often (on average)
than 1 every
week or
2. As has been my practice of late I will highlight
the posts with the
term
'Commercial' in the header so that people can ignore
them if they
choose.
They are easy to ignore if you choose.

My impression is that most people on this newsgroup
like to learn about
new
and updated products here.

I am not trying to get rich, but rather to support
the soaring
community.

Thank you,

Paul Remde

'Todd Pattist' wrote in message
...
'Paul Remde' wrote:

I'm sorry about this being the 3rd commercial post
I've done in the
last
day
or so. I tend to do them in spurts... I promise
to slow down after
this
one.

At the risk of being flamed again, the Charter of
rec.aviation.soaring does not allow *any* commercial
messages in this forum. You should be ashamed of
yourself,
as you know the rules. Other soaring suppliers abide
by
them. Put a link to your web site in your sig.

Googles Glossary:
http://www.google.com/googlegroups/glossary.html
netiquette [from 'network etiquette'] n The conventions
of
politeness recognized in discussion forums, such
as
avoidance of cross-posting to inappropriate forums
and
refraining from commercial pluggery outside the
business
forums.


http://www.faqs.org/faqs/finding-groups/general/
2) Commercial Advertisements
The general rule of thumb is that you need to take
the time
to learn where your advertisement is appropriate
before you
post it. If you are not sure where your advertisement
is
appropriate, don't post it. Another good rule of
thumb is
that unless the group's charter or FAQ specifically
mentions
that some limited types of advertising are welcome,
you
should assume that no commercial postings are allowed.

You will be asked to enter your SeeYou registration
key when you place the order.

People really should not give these out. You should
ask for
other proof (canceled check, etc.)

I don't mean to jump on you Paul, but this is not
a
commercial forum and it's against the
Todd Pattist - 'WH' Ventus C
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)

"RHP" wrote in message
om...
I also try to refrain from posting commercial messages on the RAS. I
just counted the number of advertisers in Soaring Magazine. 39 or so.
Can you imagine the damage to the RAS if all were posting commercial
messages.

If those 39 were also here on RAS making themselves available to offer
their know-how and advice and to hear our thoughts, it could be a wonderful
thing. I respect the opinion of others who feel differently, but this sport
needs all of the innovators, suppliers, manufacturers, and honest businesspeople
that it can get. In that spirit, I (for one) have always been willing to
tolerate the *occasional* soaring-related commercial ad from any regular
participant to RAS.


Vaughn

We who fly gliders are a very small group of people.

Magazine advertising is too expensive for many low volume items and can take
several months to appear.

New items offered for sale should be considered as "newsworthy" and of
interest to the even fewer of us who read RAS.

Tom Knauff