First glider to buy 10-20k euro's

Op donderdag 15 maart 2018 19:53:00 UTC+1 schreef :
Take the one in the best condition and with a decent trailer.

Keeping this aside, I'd recommend an LS1-f. Others for sure will have their own opinion :-)

Reasons: It flies nicely, has a very good feel of the thermals, climbs well and is very responsive. Glide performance is a tiny bit better than the Std. Cirrus. Unless heavily repaired or modified with a tail weight, they have a minimum loading of 60kg. Easy to rig, wings are light (60-65kg). They are sensitive to bugs, though. And you might need a service contract. I had one for 7 years, my girlfriend also just bought one and is very happy with it.

Libelles climb well and provide a great view outside but controls are not that effective and nicely balanced as with the F. I personally did not like it that much.

ASW19 has nice and responsive handling, a roomy and sturdy cockpit, but not the same feel of the thermals as the F. It is not very sensitive to bugs and has good performance at high speeds. The wings are quite heavy (~70kg), but they are well built. Would be my second choice.

Standard Cirrus flies nicely but not as stable as the F. Has good feel of the thermals. It needs some more practice and you need to keep your hand at the stick most of the time (all-flying tail).

The LS1-f looks very appealing, since you've had an LS1-f, what would you recommend to look out for when buying one? Nobody I know ever owned/owns an F, and I can't find much information on what to look out for. I know about the Service Contract with DG though.

Hi Senna,

not sure how good your German is, but I wrote a test about the LS1-f: https://www.segelflug.de/tests/LS1/index.html. Google translate might help, too.

If you have the chance, fly an LS4. The LS1-f is very similar - it has a bit higher control forces and an even better feel of the thermals.

As any glider of its vintage, an LS1-f has its flaws. Besides the usual items (gelcoat, cracks, paperwork). You should check the following items in particular:
- transition between vertical tail and fuselage boom: the bulkheads are a bit weak and tend to break or get loose. This is a quite common problem with the F. Check for cracks in the gelcoat. When rigged, twist the fuselage boom by slightly pushing the top of the vertical tail to the side. If it has a "soft" feel, there might be an issue. Preferrably take an LS1-f that has been repaired in this area. Unfortunately, the repair requires quite some work to do.
- if it sits low on the ground, the springs of the gear are worn and need to be replaced. This is an unexpensive fix (~120€ for the parts + 1 day of work)
- some F have the undercarriage modified to LS4 standard, containing a gas spring in the pushrod. This may wear, causing the gear to collapse. If you can, take someone who knows LS4 from your club. She or he should take a closer look at the whole gear assembly.
- as with many other gliders, the lift pins tend to wear over the years. During 3000h livetime extension, they often have to be replaced. Repair needs to be done in a professional workshop.
- check the play of the lift pins and how many washers are used to reduce it. It is okay to use up to 0.5mm of washers in total on all lift pins.
- check the canopy lifting mechanism for excessive play. Repairs may need some welding.
- levers of the main wing pins should be fastened. They are kept in place through rivets or screws which may loosen over time. It's an easy thing to repair.
- the forward attachment point of the horizontal stabilizer is done with a rod end. This has to be glued in place
- check how old the l'Hotellier connectors are. In EASA-land, they have to be replaced after max. 3000h (which actually is not a bad thing to do). A complete set of connectors is about 1600€

Best regards,
Christoph

On Wednesday, March 14, 2018 at 9:11:01 AM UTC-6, Senna Van den Bosch wrote:
Hey everyone, I'm a young pilot aspiring regular 300-400km flights. Currently I have done a few XC flights in an SZD 51-1 Junior at 100-200km already but I'm limited by club members who want to fly as well.

I've been looking at a few gliders and read a lot of reviews but still would like some more information besides club members and a few websites.

Currently I have an eye out for these few (in order of current interest):
DG-100/101, LS-1f, Standard Cirrus, Libelle, ASW19

I'm a fairly slim and small pilot at 1m 70 tall and weight without parachute at 60kg. I have 70 solo hours, most of them in SZD 51-1 Junior and about 15 of those with both LS4 and Centrair Pegase.

My ambitions are 300-400km+ flights, some local competitions for fun but nothing too serious. Easy rigging is a plus. Budget would be between 10-20k euro's.

What would you recommend me?

Get a Libelle and thank me later. Just don't get tall like me.

Op vrijdag 16 maart 2018 01:38:59 UTC+1 schreef Collin Shea:
On Wednesday, March 14, 2018 at 9:11:01 AM UTC-6, Senna Van den Bosch wrote:
Hey everyone, I'm a young pilot aspiring regular 300-400km flights. Currently I have done a few XC flights in an SZD 51-1 Junior at 100-200km already but I'm limited by club members who want to fly as well.

I've been looking at a few gliders and read a lot of reviews but still would like some more information besides club members and a few websites.

Currently I have an eye out for these few (in order of current interest):
DG-100/101, LS-1f, Standard Cirrus, Libelle, ASW19

I'm a fairly slim and small pilot at 1m 70 tall and weight without parachute at 60kg. I have 70 solo hours, most of them in SZD 51-1 Junior and about 15 of those with both LS4 and Centrair Pegase.

My ambitions are 300-400km+ flights, some local competitions for fun but nothing too serious. Easy rigging is a plus. Budget would be between 10-20k euro's.

What would you recommend me?

Get a Libelle and thank me later. Just don't get tall like me.

After having spoken to a few DG/Libelle/Cirrus owners I am really considering the Libelle. What would be the points to look out for when buying one, in your opinion?

I do not have so much experience with the Libelles, but things I remember:
- As with all Glasflügels: Check if the connection between the main pins and the wing spar stubs is okay (http://streifly.de/TM201-31.pdf). Repair needs a professional workshop
- check the ailerons for excessive play. That's a quite common issue with the Libelles. In many cases, a fix requires sending the aileron drives to Streifeneder
- check for play in the lift pins. This cannot be removed with washers as with the F, but the pins will have to be replaced
- check the air brake drive for free movement
- check the elevator drive for play and any hidden cracks
- check if all the AD have been taken care of

Best,
Christoph

After having spoken to a few DG/Libelle/Cirrus owners I am really considering the Libelle. What would be the points to look out for when buying one, in your opinion?

In the Wikipedia article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasflügel_H-201

it says:"they are quite sensitive to sideslipping and have relatively ineffective air brakes that make short landings tricky for inexperienced pilots".. I wonder what 'sensitive to sideslipping' means in this case.

Op vrijdag 16 maart 2018 16:02:13 UTC+1 schreef Tom BravoMike:
After having spoken to a few DG/Libelle/Cirrus owners I am really considering the Libelle. What would be the points to look out for when buying one, in your opinion?

In the Wikipedia article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasflügel_H-201

it says:"they are quite sensitive to sideslipping and have relatively ineffective air brakes that make short landings tricky for inexperienced pilots". I wonder what 'sensitive to sideslipping' means in this case.

From what I've heard is that performance decreases very fast when you slip it. So you must fly it pretty accurate with the string in the middle.

On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 08:29:10 -0700, Senna Van den Bosch wrote:

From what I've heard is that performance decreases very fast when you
slip it. So you must fly it pretty accurate with the string in the
middle.

True enough, but the same applies to all gliders. You'll soon learn to
fly a Libelle with the string straight because it that: its no harder to
fly straight than any other glider, and it does like the string to be
pointing out slightly in a thermal turn.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

Due to the shape, the fuselage should be well aligned with the flow to prevent seperations. But from my experience with this glider, it is not really a big issue. What I found more noteable was the inefficency of the rudder and the ailerons, in particular at low airspeeds. When entering a strong thermal, you sometimes need to speed up to get her into the turn. That is clearly not necessary with the LS1-f. But many people like Libelles, too. It certainly looks nice. So to each his own.

The airbrakes of a Std. Libelle are indeed not very effective. But this is something you get used to. It is the same with ASW19 and Std. Cirrus, unless they were modified with a second panel. There are approved modifications for these two models, but not for the Libelle. Some early Std. Libelles had top- and bottom airbrakes which should work better. All LS1 have quite powerful airbrakes, they work even better compared to the double-panel brakes of an ASW19.

On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 08:31:34 -0700, christoph.barniske wrote:

Some early
Std. Libelles had top- and bottom airbrakes which should work better.

Mine is one of these. I've also flown a B series in the distant past and
don't think there's much handling difference between mine with top and
bottom surface brakes and the B-series with single surface ones.

Note that most Std. Libelles are B-series, with foam in the wing skins,
water bags, top-surface brakes and a revised tailplane. The first B-
series was probably s/n 182, but the change-over was gradual, starting
from s/n 85.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org