How high does your club tow?

On Monday, August 27, 2018 at 4:20:19 PM UTC-4, Santiago Lopez wrote:
They are towing to 42k in Argentina!

Paul Bikle would be laughing at being towed to 42K

Paul Bikle would be laughing at being towed to 42K

Bob- You have to understand the reasoning behind the 42k tow performed by the Perlan project. This is a research program intended to explore the potential of high altitude stratospheric mountain wave. Previous tows have been to around 5,000 and then using the primary wave structure, altitudes up to 40k and 50k (with a World Record at over 52k) have been achieved. However, the transition from 30k to 50k has been troublesome and time consuming. Perlan has a large electrical demand, including telemetry, scientific instrumentation and, most importantly, life support. Battery capacity has been increased, but with eight hour flights planned on the way to the targeted 90k, reserve electrical capacity could drop below what is considered necessary to provide a margin of safety for essential systems. The 42k tows are intended to get the aircraft to the target wave height so that more efficient use of time (and daylight) can possibly help Perlan reach the goal of flight at 90k. Perhaps some rare condition will develop that can allow for a "low tow" and then climb into the upper atmosphere in the Polar Vortex, but for now, high tows behind the Egrett are deemed a more efficient use of resources to achieve the mission goals.

I am not connected with the Perlan Project, except as being friends with many of the participants, so any errors in the above explanation are mine alone. Best of luck to Perlan, and congratulations on the 62k altitude flight!

On Sunday, August 26, 2018 at 7:15:26 AM UTC-6, wrote:
Our Club is reworking towing height fees. We are based south of Denver (elevation 7,000' msl). Normal tow heights are to about 9,000-10,000' msl. We have new members who now are asking for tows to 14,000' msl. This is causing up to 45-minute waits for the next tow. Normally, we get about four or five tows per hours, but a high altitude tow drops us to two tows per hour.

How high does your club allow for tows?


Raul Boerner

My chapter is at 5500MSL. Tow rates are $11 hookup + $1.30/100ft up to 9000MSL. Above that for wave or high tows or retrieves $180/tach hour with a $68/minimum.

Perhaps a method of pricing that makes such tows unattractive and revenue positive if accommodated?

Is the desire for high tows to tow away from the approach zones with a margin to still be with glide range of the base?

In my observation, this is why CAP o-rides don't mix well with normal club operations in several cases. The syllabus drives tows to 2500-3000ft agl when club member pilots are getting off at 900-1500ft agl.

Frank Whiteley

On Sunday, August 26, 2018 at 6:15:26 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Our Club is reworking towing height fees. We are based south of Denver (elevation 7,000' msl). Normal tow heights are to about 9,000-10,000' msl. We have new members who now are asking for tows to 14,000' msl. This is causing up to 45-minute waits for the next tow. Normally, we get about four or five tows per hours, but a high altitude tow drops us to two tows per hour.

How high does your club allow for tows?


Raul Boerner

The normal way of charging by the 100' doesn't work because of the reduced climb rate (what are you using for these tows?), so the answer is to charge by tach time. Maybe all tows should be done this way (John Templeton uses tach time at Parowan for all tows). This impacts everybody else, so I would poll them on how to handle it. Personally, I would make them go early or late unless no one else is waiting.

Tom

On Sunday, August 26, 2018 at 8:49:42 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Sunday, August 26, 2018 at 6:15:26 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Our Club is reworking towing height fees. We are based south of Denver (elevation 7,000' msl). Normal tow heights are to about 9,000-10,000' msl. We have new members who now are asking for tows to 14,000' msl. This is causing up to 45-minute waits for the next tow. Normally, we get about four or five tows per hours, but a high altitude tow drops us to two tows per hour..

How high does your club allow for tows?


Raul Boerner

The normal way of charging by the 100' doesn't work because of the reduced climb rate (what are you using for these tows?), so the answer is to charge by tach time. Maybe all tows should be done this way (John Templeton uses tach time at Parowan for all tows). This impacts everybody else, so I would poll them on how to handle it. Personally, I would make them go early or late unless no one else is waiting.

Tom

Tach time is also a fairer way to charge for tows, since the higher towing speeds demanded by modern gliders reduces the climb rate.

Tach time seems like a good way to go for high tows, but I won't make any suggestions about what rate to charge, as situations differ. However, for the "normal" tow, which can be low, as for repeated pattern practice, the typical Hobbs meter that only displays in tenths of an hour, a tow could be 0.1 hour or 0.2 hour or even 0.3 hour, depending on how the numbers click over. Tach based charges also have the effect of charging someone for time spent waiting for traffic to clear, slow hook ups and situations where the tow plane is running with no gliders ready, but not so much of a delay that a shutdown and restart is warranted.

Plus, I doubt that the tow pilot really wants to be that much of a bookkeeper. Reading the altimeter is much easier than checking the tiny numbers on the Hobbs, which is often not in an easily viewed place on the instrument panel.

And let's not forget that tow pilots also differ. We had one who ran B-52 sized patterns that added excessive delays to busy day operations.

Our club routinely tows to 3000' AGL (field elevation 537') for student flights, and unfortunately also for most other flights - a lot of glider pilots wouldn't want to hear what I'm saying about them in the cockpit when I take them to a boomer at 2000' AGL and they hang on for dear life, finally releasing in sink at 3000'!

The more experienced pilots usually take a 2000' tow which is plenty, of course, without a ridge to use (rare in our part of Illinois)

I've taken high tows on occasions to do acro, but not when there is a crowd waiting to fly - usually a flat calm day anyway.

The trouble with using time for tows is that every tow pilot takes a different amount of time, either by the way he flies or how aggressively he works lift during the tow. I can usually get two full 3000' ft tows done in the time it takes a few of our "more conservative" tow pilots to complete one tow...

Kirk

On Sunday, August 26, 2018 at 6:15:26 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Our Club is reworking towing height fees. We are based south of Denver (elevation 7,000' msl). Normal tow heights are to about 9,000-10,000' msl. We have new members who now are asking for tows to 14,000' msl. This is causing up to 45-minute waits for the next tow. Normally, we get about four or five tows per hours, but a high altitude tow drops us to two tows per hour.

How high does your club allow for tows?


Raul Boerner

It depends on the location and the reason for the high tows. In some operations out here in the west a longer tow is required to get into lift on a normal day. Hollister or Santa Ynez for example, I think Williams might be the same way as well but I have not flown out there so I can't comment. I don't think a 7000ft AGL tows are common but I think the 4000ft to 5000ft AGL range is pretty common. If they are towing up into the mountains to get into working lift than it seems acceptable as long as the line for tows isn't to long. On the other hand, if they are just towing that high for a sled ride that seems a bit counterproductive for anyone except a commercial ride operation.

On Monday, August 27, 2018 at 10:52:43 AM UTC-7, Wyll Surf Air wrote:
On Sunday, August 26, 2018 at 6:15:26 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Our Club is reworking towing height fees. We are based south of Denver (elevation 7,000' msl). Normal tow heights are to about 9,000-10,000' msl. We have new members who now are asking for tows to 14,000' msl. This is causing up to 45-minute waits for the next tow. Normally, we get about four or five tows per hours, but a high altitude tow drops us to two tows per hour..

How high does your club allow for tows?


Raul Boerner

It depends on the location and the reason for the high tows. In some operations out here in the west a longer tow is required to get into lift on a normal day. Hollister or Santa Ynez for example, I think Williams might be the same way as well but I have not flown out there so I can't comment. I don't think a 7000ft AGL tows are common but I think the 4000ft to 5000ft AGL range is pretty common. If they are towing up into the mountains to get into working lift than it seems acceptable as long as the line for tows isn't to long. On the other hand, if they are just towing that high for a sled ride that seems a bit counterproductive for anyone except a commercial ride operation.

Back in 2001 I was visiting the USA and dropped in at a club near Joliet IL and took a flight with an instructor in a Duo Discus (which I hadn't previously flown, although I had a fair bit of experience in a Janus).

I surprised the heck out of the instructor by releasing in lift at 700 ft AGL!

The thermal turned out to be a bit weaker than I'd expected and it took maybe 10 minutes to get up to 1000 ft, but then it got better and pretty soon we were at 5000 ft and went for a nice cruise around the area.

An instructor on a check ride in a Grob at Omarama in 1994 criticised me for towing straight through a booming thermal at 1500 ft.

Ever since then if I see the vario get pegged on tow [1] I start counting and if I get past ten then as soon as the tug flies out of the lift and drops away below me I pull the pin and turn hard back once I see the rope gone. It saves money, but the only downside is you don't get to practice your slack rope recovery technique :-) :-)

[1] except in a PW5. The vario is always pegged on tow in a PW5 behind a Pawnee.

On Monday, August 27, 2018 at 8:15:15 PM UTC-5, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Monday, August 27, 2018 at 10:52:43 AM UTC-7, Wyll Surf Air wrote:
On Sunday, August 26, 2018 at 6:15:26 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Our Club is reworking towing height fees. We are based south of Denver (elevation 7,000' msl). Normal tow heights are to about 9,000-10,000' msl.. We have new members who now are asking for tows to 14,000' msl. This is causing up to 45-minute waits for the next tow. Normally, we get about four or five tows per hours, but a high altitude tow drops us to two tows per hour.

How high does your club allow for tows?


Raul Boerner

It depends on the location and the reason for the high tows. In some operations out here in the west a longer tow is required to get into lift on a normal day. Hollister or Santa Ynez for example, I think Williams might be the same way as well but I have not flown out there so I can't comment.. I don't think a 7000ft AGL tows are common but I think the 4000ft to 5000ft AGL range is pretty common. If they are towing up into the mountains to get into working lift than it seems acceptable as long as the line for tows isn't to long. On the other hand, if they are just towing that high for a sled ride that seems a bit counterproductive for anyone except a commercial ride operation.

Back in 2001 I was visiting the USA and dropped in at a club near Joliet IL and took a flight with an instructor in a Duo Discus (which I hadn't previously flown, although I had a fair bit of experience in a Janus).

I surprised the heck out of the instructor by releasing in lift at 700 ft AGL!

The thermal turned out to be a bit weaker than I'd expected and it took maybe 10 minutes to get up to 1000 ft, but then it got better and pretty soon we were at 5000 ft and went for a nice cruise around the area.

An instructor on a check ride in a Grob at Omarama in 1994 criticised me for towing straight through a booming thermal at 1500 ft.

Ever since then if I see the vario get pegged on tow [1] I start counting and if I get past ten then as soon as the tug flies out of the lift and drops away below me I pull the pin and turn hard back once I see the rope gone. It saves money, but the only downside is you don't get to practice your slack rope recovery technique :-) :-)

[1] except in a PW5. The vario is always pegged on tow in a PW5 behind a Pawnee.

Bruce, you must have flown at Chicago Glider Club in our Duo. Nobody here would today be surprised if you released low, I do it all the time (except for some tows to 2,000' when ballasted). I take pride in releasing low and thermaling away from anything above 1,000'. Once a year I may need a relight.. My buddies still take high tows, though.
Herb