Youth Members in your (US) Club

F.L. Whiteley wrote:

"Shawn" wrote in message
...

F.L. Whiteley wrote:


Surprisingly, wear of the uniform was one of the big draws to CAP

(according

to a survey). My local CAP squadron does scant little, if any, flying.
Other squadrons do much better. Explorer Scouting may be an opportunity

to

organize a youth group with an aviation emphasis. See
http://www.learning-for-life.org/exp...ion/index.html

Frank Whiteley

A survey of teenagers at large? I'd find that real surprising, unless
the uniform was a hoodie, baggy pants and an MP3 player (girls or boys).
I would imagine very different results if you just surveyed the CAP
kids. I think the sport (in the US) would benefit greatly from courting
more than the pre-ROTC teens. For most kids a big attraction of soaring
might be that its not *uniform*, not the same thing all the other kids
are doing. CAP and Scouts offer a straight forward avenue into this
population, and I'm all for utilizing it, but I don't think we are best
served by acting like a branch of these organizations.
Skate parks! That's where we can go to get access to a different crowd
of kids. I'll try it if Salida ever gets flight instruction going again.

Shawn

P.S. Frank, don't they fly the K-21?


Actually, I think the uniform was the adult attraction. There is a class
'b' CAP uniform which consists of the CAP hat, wing T, and shorts. BDU's
and Blues are fine, in their place.

I agree, there's a lot of baggage to drag to the airfield in CAP and Scouts.
Exploring has diverged from Scouting, per se.

There's a large soccer organization on a former turf farm a few miles south
of our club. It's packed every weekend. I think there must be at least a
dozen fields.

Hmm, those soccer moms too. :-)
Get them all soaring instead of kicking and you'll open up some nice
landable terrain.

Shawn

A survey of teenagers at large? I'd find that real surprising, unless
the uniform was a hoodie, baggy pants and an MP3 player (girls or boys).

In the winter, the hoodie is a great idea for me. And I
used to wear baggy pants until my ass got so big, now my pants are
too tight. Maybe the kids are really smart and just thinking ahead?
And I'm expecting an IPOD for my birthday (how do the old farts live
without them?)

I think all aircraft should have a sound system, with a good
mix of rap and country music, installed at the factory.

I must say I'm glad not everyone judges youth, or even me, by
what I wear or the way I talk or the dangfangled music I listen to.
Otherwise, I'd be single and nobody would fly with me.
Right, y'all? :PPPP

At my club, it seems most of the members understand that the
youth are the key to the club. We absolutely love the
BBQ and picnic and rides for kids. Yes, some of the youth don't
have the focus, single-mindedness, and discipline to
shoot through a training program. Same for some adults.

The main thing is they are encouraged. And yes, we have
family memberships. What clubs don't? Who would want
to go somewhere that the family is excluded?

As far as 14 being to young to fly a glider, 14 is just a
govt. minimum age. There will be some kids who simply aren't
mature enough at 14 (or even 17) to avoid damaging
a glider or themselves. How this decision is made
seems like a question beyond the scope of this newsgroup...
There are simply a lot of intangibles. One would hope that the club
has a single focus decider (senior CFI perhaps) who is delegated the
power to decide yea or nay.

If you don't like that, I suppose one must vote with ones feet
(go elsewhere).
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
news:4165e033$1@darkstar...
snip
At my club, it seems most of the members understand that the
youth are the key to the club. We absolutely love the
BBQ and picnic and rides for kids. Yes, some of the youth don't
have the focus, single-mindedness, and discipline to
shoot through a training program. Same for some adults.
snip
A good water balloon launcher or two is essential for hot evening BBQs.
Kids make great moving targets at 75-100 yards. An ice chest can hold
hundreds of pre-loaded balloons.

Ulrich....

The situation you describe is somthing that many parents and juniors
deal with all the time. I was lucky enough to start flying (when 14)
at an operation that supported juniors, and all my local clubs have
always been like that. My experience in other places, however, hasn't
been as great.

I've flown at several commercial operations throughout the years, all
of them seemingly convinced my sole purpose in attempting to rent their
equipment was to break it. Standard procedure when checking out
juniors seems to be multiple rope breaks at places I don't consider
safe at all (and, as an instructor, would never put a student, pilot
getting a BFR or spring checkout, ect. in). At one location, after
satisfying their instructor, I was actually complemented. At another,
after the 3rd ropebreak in a row this one in a position that was beyond
my not safe level (and into my punch the instructor in the face area) I
walked away no longer interested in flying there.

Incidently, two things came from that. One, the instructor recently
ran for the SSA Board on a "pro juniors" position. Its amazing what
people will say to try to get elected. Thank god he didnt. Secondly,
a pilot was recently killed because of a rope break at that airport. I
called a friend, only to find out that the ropebreak occured at the
same place and altitude where I had been given an intentional
ropebreak. I guess now I'm glad I'm still alive today.

In many places, there seems to be an anti-youth culture. I can
remember one MAJOR figure in soaring and a prominent author write an
article about how he thought DPE's weren't following the PTS as they
should be. All of his examples cited juniors who he felt shouldnt be a
private pilot, or even a CFIG. I think that on the whole, the majority
of pilots across all fields of aviation support youth, but there is a
small minority that dosen't. The problem with this is the minority is
vocal, and the majority in this country just haven't been doing whats
needed to be done to fix the situation.

Help is on the way, however. Watch this forumn for in the next few
weeks as myself and several others are working to form a major new
organization for Junior soaring in the US, and you should be seeing
somthing soon.

Kevin Christner, CFIG
Jantar Std. 2 N932KC

"Ulrich Neumann" wrote in message
om...
Therefore my questions: Does your club have a youth/family membership
category with reduced dues and/or waived initiation fees? Does your
club have a youth program? Have there ever been any legal/insurance
issues with minor members in your club? Any input is appreciated. (you
may reply privately, if you don't want to discuss this on the net)

snip

Most of the Clubs in Region IV - including my own, Skyline - have some kind
of youth membershi/involvement with a special membership category/fee
structure. One (Tidewater) offers SUBSTANTIAL youth scholarships!!! In
addition, there's an active CAP program for youth in gliders, although not
every Wing (state) provides instrutcion beyond "Orientation rides".

FWIW, the "problem" - at the risk of horrible oversimplification - seems to
be a cultural one in which the "boomer" generation (and maybe the younger
"boomer echo" generation") is far, far more risk-averse than the generations
that currently represent the patriarchs of soaring (like mine - I'm 68 years
old.) Frankly, I think this cultural issue is one that we need to get a lot
smarter about in soaring if we're to survive . . . but the solution
certainly isn't to turn our collective backs on young people, but to figure
out how to deliver safe soaring to a short attention span, risk averse
population . . .


Jim Kellett, Resident Curmudgeon
"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored ."
-Aldous Huxley

Jim Kellett wrote:


Most of the Clubs in Region IV - including my own, Skyline - have some kind
of youth membershi/involvement with a special membership category/fee
structure. One (Tidewater) offers SUBSTANTIAL youth scholarships!!! In
addition, there's an active CAP program for youth in gliders, although not
every Wing (state) provides instrutcion beyond "Orientation rides".

FWIW, the "problem" - at the risk of horrible oversimplification - seems to
be a cultural one in which the "boomer" generation (and maybe the younger
"boomer echo" generation") is far, far more risk-averse than the generations
that currently represent the patriarchs of soaring (like mine - I'm 68 years
old.) Frankly, I think this cultural issue is one that we need to get a lot
smarter about in soaring if we're to survive . . . but the solution
certainly isn't to turn our collective backs on young people, but to figure
out how to deliver safe soaring to a short attention span, risk averse
population . . .

That's a new one on me! The kids that aren't dumpy fat couch potatoes
playing Doom III all day are out doing some pretty scary stuff. Watch
the X Games on ESPN sometime.
A problem soaring has is that kids see all the old guys and figure its a
boring old fart sport. Dumb kids! ;-)

Shawn

The Greater Boston Soaring Club (Northeast US) has a very successful
Youth program which won the Civil Air Patrol "Northeast Region Brewer
Award for Aerospace Education excellence" award this year. See the club
website http://soargbsc.org and click on "Junior Program".

Tony V.

Another UK perspective.

Our club offers a discounted junior membership to encourage youngsters.
The lower limit is about 14/15 - mainly on the basis that if they get to
solo standard before they can go solo (16) the frustration may set in
and they leave.

They are treated just the same as any adult ab-initio and expected to
learn how to do all the routine tasks involved in launching a glider
(maintaining the log book, fitting cables, helping retrieve etc.etc).


Chris Gadsby


Ulrich Neumann wrote:

Hi all,

I need your input on an issue that has led to an ongoing, heated
debate ever since my son joined our soaring club at age 14. He begun
taking lessons and soloed during a youth soaring camp organized by
another club this summer. A small but vocal group of members are
stricktly against youth- and family memberships. Kids under 18 are
considered a liability, a hazard to themself during the operation and
just not desirable members in their minds. All kinds of half-baked
legalities are being cited i.e. that the club could get dragged down
finacially if a minor would get hurt and a suit be filed by the
parents, etc. I can't shake the impression that these guys would like
to have a 'good 'ol boy county club with planes'! (Heck, the golf
carts are already there!)

Therefore my questions: Does your club have a youth/family membership
category with reduced dues and/or waived initiation fees? Does your
club have a youth program? Have there ever been any legal/insurance
issues with minor members in your club? Any input is appreciated. (you
may reply privately, if you don't want to discuss this on the net)

Ulrich Neumann

Therefore my questions: Does your club have a youth/family membership
category with reduced dues and/or waived initiation fees? ...

These systems are back in the majority (they were normal in the 1960s when I
was a benefiting teenager and fell off in the '80s). My 1998 analysis of
SSA Youth membership showed nearly 1/2 of SSA Chapters with 0 Youth Members,
7 USA States with 0, and 1/2 of SSA Regions (3-4 State areas) with under
50... but things have improved (see my SOARING piece, July '04, p. 7).
Harris Hill Soaring Corp. has been a persistent good example that DEPENDS on
its youth component for daily operations as well as recruiting and legacy.
Recent positive resurgences have included Texas SA, SC of Houston,
MITSA/GBSC, Tidewater SS,... With SOARING magazine deliberately increasing
its coverage of youth events and ideas, the "Milestones" column has more
positive examples every month. Your curmudgeons are definitely the
exception.

See http://acro.harvard.edu/SOARING/books/gb_youth.htm (1994), where I
argued that to get youth, you need a youth PROGRAM.

See also, for inspiration,
www.soarcsa.org/ssa/ssay/ycom.htm
www.soarcsa.org/ssa/ssay/sailyth.htm
www.greeleynet.com/~jhpc/SSAYouth.ppt

John H. Campbell
SSA Youth Committee

(Ulrich Neumann) wrote
All kinds of half-baked
legalities are being cited i.e. that the club could get dragged down
finacially if a minor would get hurt and a suit be filed by the
parents, etc.

Look, let me start by saying I support youth involvement in all air
sports, and am always willing to volunteer my time as an instructor
(parachutes, gliders, airplanes) to make it happen. I will be the
last person in the world to argue that we shouldn't have them around
and flying - and you better believe I mean solo. In fact, while I
have a standing rule about not signing off glider students for solo XC
(on the principle that if you are competent to go XC, you should
easily be able to pass the private glider checkride and do it on your
own ticket, not mine) I specifically make an exception for those under
16 because they CAN'T get a glider ticket, and I don't want to see
them stuck flying circles around the home field until they can.

Having said all that - the legalities being cited are not half-baked.
There really is a risk of legal liability if a minor is hurt, and this
is an issue that should be addressed.

We all sign waivers when we join clubs, and there is legal precedent
that such waivers are valid. The landmark case is Hulsey v. Elsinore,
and involves a parachute club rather than a soaring club, but the
principle is sound and not limited to parachuting. I could not find
it online, but did find a similar case that used is as precedent:
http://www.oscn.net/applications/osc...p?citeID=60206

In other words, an injured adult is not likely to be able to sue the
soaring club in spite of a waiver absent gross negligence.

Not so for a minor. A minor can't sign away his own rights; neither
can the parent sign them away. The only real solution is a waiver
that specifies that in the event the minor chooses to sue, the parent
will cover the club's legal expenses. Such a strategy has been
employed by Relative Workshop, and while the case was settled, it was
settled by the plaintiff (injured in a parachuting accident) paying a
settlement to the defendant (the manufacturer of the parachute).

So the bottom line is, I do not believe the legal problem of having
minor in the club is insurmountable - but it is real, not half-baked.

Disclaimer - I am not a lawyer, neither do I play one on TV - but I
did stay in a Holiday Inn Express.

Michael