Why does the Sporting code require "Goal" to be a finish point???

Mark Zivley wrote:

But what do you store in your logger as your task? For 300k diamond
goal you would need to have both the O&R and the finish point included.
You can't have both points in the task for the state record "goal".

Use paper declarations instead an electronic declaration, or carry two
loggers, one for the state record and one for the badge.

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Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

I got lost a long way back in this thread, so please
re-educate me. The FAI sporting code sect 4.2 defines
declaration requirements and says 'the last declaration
made before takeoff is the only one valid for the flight,
but a concurrently flown and different competition
task is allowed.' Seems that your electronic declaration
on the roll is the only one that counts.

Also, to confuse me further, Annex C sect 4.5 illustrates
multiple claims from a single declared flight. It
seems to say a Diamond goal may be claimed between
two declared turnpoints which are neither start nor
finish, but elements in a more complicated course.
In the given example, if I read it right, the 'goal'
is not the finish point...perhaps I am not the only
one confused here ?

Should we call in the lawyers ?

Ian



At 15:24 10 October 2004, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Mark Zivley wrote:
But what do you store in your logger as your task?
For 300k diamond
goal you would need to have both the O&R and the finish
point included.
You can't have both points in the task for the state
record 'goal'.

It's not required that the declaration be in the logger,
though that can
be the most convenient at times. For a dual declaration,
the easiest
would be two paper ones, or perhaps one in the logger,
one on paper. If
you had two loggers, you could do it that way.


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Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

Ian Cant wrote:
I got lost a long way back in this thread, so please
re-educate me. The FAI sporting code sect 4.2 defines
declaration requirements and says 'the last declaration
made before takeoff is the only one valid for the flight,
but a concurrently flown and different competition
task is allowed.' Seems that your electronic declaration
on the roll is the only one that counts.

Only the most recent declaration is valid. The electronic declaration
can be made well before the takeoff (even months), and can be superceded
by a more recent declaration on paper. The paper one requires an
official observer to be valid; the electronic one doesn't (at least for
the recorders I am familier with).



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Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

At 03:12 09 October 2004, Eric Greenwell wrote:
you should be able to have two declarations, one for
the
SSA and one for the FAI. I don't know if anyone has
tried this, but the
FAI badge rules and SSA State record rules don't prohibit
declarations
that aren't for their purposes.

Hmmmm. Don't bet the farm on it. State Record Rules
follow FAI Sporting Code requirements for World Records,
except as specifically amended for State Records. (State
Record Rules are online on the SSA web page, under
'Badges & Records' at the 'forms' link.)

I don't see an excption on the one-to-a-customer/last-one-before-t
ake-off approach to declarations.

Da Badge Lady

I would agree with the other posters here about only having one declaration. I
would be rather concerned (as an OO) if someone leafed through a bunch of
declarations before handing me the 'right' one...

However, my interpretation of the regulations for record/badge claims is this:

You can claim as many 'performances' as you like from one flight, as long as
they meet the criteria set down. You could declare a 1000Km triangle and if you
took over 5hrs to complete it and gained 5000m on the way round, you could
claim your Silver, Gold and Diamond badges plus the 1000Km Diploma.

In terms of records, this is true as well. If you take a particular segment of
the flight and it qualifies _in its own right_ for a soaring performance, then
you can claim it. The only exception I can find is this:

"3.0.2 Records in any one flight.

Any record or records may be broken in any one flight for which the
requirements
are met, except that only one speed record may be certificated for a flight
over a triangular or out and return course, the record being certificated for
the
record distance immediately less than the official distance of the flight."

So I take that as meaning I could declare a 3-TP quadrilateral 500Km, and claim
everything up to and including Diamond Distance (see SC-3 4.5). If I carried on
in the same direction-ish, and landed much further away I could maybe claim a
free distance record. I could also claim a 300Km triangle speed record and
maybe even a 100Km goal record, if it complied with the 1000m rule and crossed
a synthetic finish line/ FAI sector. And so on.

I think there is confusion over the application of the terms START, FINISH &
GOAL. I look at these in relative terms when considering a particular
performance from a flight segment. I don't decide on what they are then fix
this for all evidence related to that flight.

For instance, it's well known you can claim Silver Distance from one leg of a
triangle, provided you comply with the 1000m rule (assuming 100Km leg) or take
the penalty. You also have to prove a valid start & finish - at least one of
these will start off as a TP in the declaration and no-one seems to have a
problem with that...

Judy Ruprecht wrote:
At 03:12 09 October 2004, Eric Greenwell wrote:

you should be able to have two declarations, one for
the
SSA and one for the FAI. I don't know if anyone has
tried this, but the
FAI badge rules and SSA State record rules don't prohibit
declarations
that aren't for their purposes.


Hmmmm. Don't bet the farm on it. State Record Rules
follow FAI Sporting Code requirements for World Records,
except as specifically amended for State Records. (State
Record Rules are online on the SSA web page, under
'Badges & Records' at the 'forms' link.)

They do include FAI rules by reference, but USA State Records are not
FAI records in any way, and the FAI has no control over them at all.


I don't see an excption on the one-to-a-customer/last-one-before-t
ake-off approach to declarations.

Perhaps it's about what a "declaration" is: if it's on paper, the FAI OO
has to sign it; if it's in the logger, the logger validates it, but the
FAI OO has to verify the logger is on board glider during the flight.
So, you can have a suitcase full of papers with all kinds of tasks on
them, but none qualify as declarations because they aren't signed by the
OO; similarly, you could carry several loggers, but if they aren't
verified as "on board" by the FAI OO, they are irrelevant. I don't know
of any restriction in the FAI rules on that suitcase full of tasks or
carrying more than one logger.

I think it's just a piece of paper until you point at it and say "that's
the declaration for my FAI badge flight attempt", and that's what it
becomes. If you point to another piece of paper and say "that's the
declaration for my Washington state record flight attempt", you aren't
making an FAI badge flight declaration.

I see no reason to prohibit concurrent declarations for things like
state records, club ladders, and so on. If the FAI rule about a single
declaration was intended to prohibit declarations for all non-FAI flight
purposes, they should explicitly state that, but as written, I think the
ban only applies to declarations for FAI purposes.

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Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

Eric Greenwell wrote in message ...
Judy Ruprecht wrote:
At 03:12 09 October 2004, Eric Greenwell wrote:

you should be able to have two declarations, one for
the
SSA and one for the FAI. I don't know if anyone has
tried this, but the
FAI badge rules and SSA State record rules don't prohibit
declarations
that aren't for their purposes.


Hmmmm. Don't bet the farm on it. State Record Rules
follow FAI Sporting Code requirements for World Records,
except as specifically amended for State Records. (State
Record Rules are online on the SSA web page, under
'Badges & Records' at the 'forms' link.)

They do include FAI rules by reference, but USA State Records are not
FAI records in any way, and the FAI has no control over them at all.


The (USA) State record rules say "Except as provided by these rules,
State Records shall comply with the FAI Sporting Code, Section 3
("SC3") and to the additional requirements of Section 6.0 below."

In the Sporting Code Section 3, Chapter 4.2.2 Declaration Validity,
paragraph a. "The last declaration made before takeoff is the only one
valid for the flight, but a concurrently flown and different
competition task is allowed."

So I don't see any way that more than one (valid) declaration can
exist for a flight AND still comply with the Sporting Code. Either
the one in the flight recorder is the last one made, or the paper one
is the last one made. Maybe you can talk an OO into verifying a flight
with two "valid" declarations, but I think it is not in the intention
of the rules to do so. It ain't, well, sporting.

Regards,
John

PS Volkslogger (and other?) flight recorder owners need to be aware
that the Volkslogger will automatically declare the most recently
stored declaration before each following flight, when power is turned
on. If you declare on paper, then climb in the glider and take off,
the last valid declaration will be in the flight recorder. You need to
declare on paper, after you power up the Volkslogger.




I don't see an excption on the one-to-a-customer/last-one-before-t
ake-off approach to declarations.

Perhaps it's about what a "declaration" is: if it's on paper, the FAI OO
has to sign it; if it's in the logger, the logger validates it, but the
FAI OO has to verify the logger is on board glider during the flight.
So, you can have a suitcase full of papers with all kinds of tasks on
them, but none qualify as declarations because they aren't signed by the
OO; similarly, you could carry several loggers, but if they aren't
verified as "on board" by the FAI OO, they are irrelevant. I don't know
of any restriction in the FAI rules on that suitcase full of tasks or
carrying more than one logger.

I think it's just a piece of paper until you point at it and say "that's
the declaration for my FAI badge flight attempt", and that's what it
becomes. If you point to another piece of paper and say "that's the
declaration for my Washington state record flight attempt", you aren't
making an FAI badge flight declaration.

I see no reason to prohibit concurrent declarations for things like
state records, club ladders, and so on. If the FAI rule about a single
declaration was intended to prohibit declarations for all non-FAI flight
purposes, they should explicitly state that, but as written, I think the
ban only applies to declarations for FAI purposes.

It may be copied into the flight log, but I doubt the declaration time
is changed to the current time. The time of the declaration should be
the time at which you pressed "save" when originally making it.

If you then make several flights, all will have this same declaration
time.

-Tom

(John Gilbert) wrote in message . com...

PS Volkslogger (and other?) flight recorder owners need to be aware
that the Volkslogger will automatically declare the most recently
stored declaration before each following flight, when power is turned
on. If you declare on paper, then climb in the glider and take off,
the last valid declaration will be in the flight recorder. You need to
declare on paper, after you power up the Volkslogger.

(Tom Serkowski) wrote in message . com...
It may be copied into the flight log, but I doubt the declaration time
is changed to the current time. The time of the declaration should be
the time at which you pressed "save" when originally making it.

If you then make several flights, all will have this same declaration
time.

-Tom

Tom,

Have you verified that with your Volkslogger? Every .igc file from
mine has the first "C record", where the declaration date is supposed
to be, the same date and time as the first "B record", the fix data.
(see TECHNICAL SPECIFICATION
FOR IGC-APPROVED GNSS FLIGHT RECORDERS somewhere on the FAI website)

Just to make sure I am interpreting my IGC files correctly, I looked
in the Volkslogger manual (2/21/2000), p. 24. "During the turn-on of
the instrument, the recording of a new IGC-file commmences
immediately. At this time the data, which are still in the declaration
form, are copied automatically into the corresponding places of the
IGC-files. The "automatic" declaration is, like any other declaration,
coded with the date and time of the turn-on."

In essence, one is declaring when one turns on the Volkslogger.

Regards,
John


(John Gilbert) wrote in message . com...

PS Volkslogger (and other?) flight recorder owners need to be aware
that the Volkslogger will automatically declare the most recently
stored declaration before each following flight, when power is turned
on. If you declare on paper, then climb in the glider and take off,
the last valid declaration will be in the flight recorder. You need to
declare on paper, after you power up the Volkslogger.

John Gilbert wrote:


The (USA) State record rules say "Except as provided by these rules,
State Records shall comply with the FAI Sporting Code, Section 3
("SC3") and to the additional requirements of Section 6.0 below."

Even though they "must comply with the Sporting Code", the rules are not
part of the Sporting Code. State records are operated independent of the
FAI system, and simply copy the rules.

In the Sporting Code Section 3, Chapter 4.2.2 Declaration Validity,
paragraph a. "The last declaration made before takeoff is the only one
valid for the flight, but a concurrently flown and different
competition task is allowed."

I think you have to read these context: these rules apply to FAI flight
achievements, not SSA records, which are not part of the FAI system.

So I don't see any way that more than one (valid) declaration can
exist for a flight AND still comply with the Sporting Code.

I agree with that you that Sporting Code allows only one valid
declaration for a Badge or World Record flight. This is to prevent the
pilot from choosing declaration in or after flight. But why can't you
have another declaration for another set of rules by a different
organization? This declaration would not be valid for FAI badge or World
record claims - no question about that -but it would/should be valid for
a USA state record claim. Because the SSA State rules only allow one
valid declaration, the declaration for the FAI badges, etc., would not
be valid for the State Record attempt.

These are separate sets of rules, and even though the SSA State record
rules reference the FAI rules, they are NOT FAI rules!

Either
the one in the flight recorder is the last one made, or the paper one
is the last one made. Maybe you can talk an OO into verifying a flight
with two "valid" declarations, but I think it is not in the intention
of the rules to do so. It ain't, well, sporting.

The OO is not being asked to verify a claim with two "valid"
declarations, he just observes the flight and attests to the correctness
of the procedures and documentation. The FAI badge claim, with
supporting documentation (including the declaration made for the FAI),
is sent to the FAI Award representative (Judy Ruprecht currently) for
the USA. She evaluates the claim.

The SSA State record claim, with it's supporting documentation
(including the declaration made for the SSA), is sent to the SSA record
keeper for the State, who evaluates the claim for the State.

The intent of the FAI rules is to have one declaration, and only one,
apply to the Badge/world record claim, and that would be achieved; ditto
for the SSA record claim. The pilot would not be allowed to pick which
declaration went with which claim after the flight.

I see nothing unsporting about following the rules. The claim for a
badge/world record is not affected in any way by a concurrent claim for
an SSA state record. No matter what was on each declaration, it would
not have the slightest impact on the claim supported by the other
declaration.

Since it seems like this has not come up before, I doubt that there is
any precedence, so it would be wise to discuss this with Judy R and your
state record keeper before trying it. My opinion may not sway the people
that have to evaluate your claim!

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Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA